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Thread: Ohio State hoops 2010-11

  1. #61
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    Re: Ohio State hoops 2010-11

    Sullinger unspoiled by success
    “I want to be different. I don’t want to be the stereotypical, flashy athlete, the guy a lot of people look at and assume doesn’t work hard. I’ve never been flashy. I never will be flashy. I don’t want that.”

    He smiles.

    “I want to be Jared Sullinger,” he says. “Or just Jared.”

    The Buckeyes advanced to the 2007 NCAA title game behind center Greg Oden, who was the No. 1 pick in the NBA draft. And they won a share of last season’s Big Ten title mainly because of the play of Wooden Award winner Evan Turner.

    As good as those squads were – and as successful as Oden and Turner may have been – the feeling around the program is that Thad Matta has his best team yet in Columbus – and his best player.
    http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketb...ullinger020111

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  3. #62
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    Re: Ohio State hoops 2010-11

    Well, the beat goes on. Wisconsin have it in them? They'll have to do it with home court advantage, because this is one of Wiscy's weaker teams in Bo Ryan's tenure.
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  4. #63
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    Re: Ohio State hoops 2010-11

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Well, the beat goes on. Wisconsin have it in them? They'll have to do it with home court advantage, because this is one of Wiscy's weaker teams in Bo Ryan's tenure.
    It's one of Ryan's better teams, actually.

    They're 7th in the country at adjusted efficiency margin. They're second in the country at offensive efficiency, scoring about 1.2 points per possession.

    Taylor & Leuer are two of the very best players in America. This will be Ohio State's toughest game they'll play all season until/unless they get to the Elite 8 or beyond.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  5. #64
    Tired of talk. Win! Joseph's Avatar
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    Re: Ohio State hoops 2010-11

    OSU is legit it appears.

    Championships for MY teams in my lifetime:
    Cincinnati Reds - 75, 76, 90
    Chicago Blackhawks - 10, 13
    University of Kentucky - 78, 96, 98, 12
    Cincinnati Bengals - None
    Chicago Bulls - 91, 92, 93, 96, 97, 98

  6. #65
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Ohio State hoops 2010-11

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    It's one of Ryan's better teams, actually.

    They're 7th in the country at adjusted efficiency margin. They're second in the country at offensive efficiency, scoring about 1.2 points per possession.

    Taylor & Leuer are two of the very best players in America. This will be Ohio State's toughest game they'll play all season until/unless they get to the Elite 8 or beyond.
    Thanks for the actually. I've seen a lot of Wiscy teams over the years, they usually have more talent on the floor than they do this year. Your opinion of the two players is an exaggeration. Maybe in the Big 10, but "two of the very best players in America" would make them 1st team All-Americans. Will they make Honorable or Special Mention?

    I will have to plead complete ignorance to your evidence, but my first thought is that a ball/clock control team like them would score high in something measuring efficiency. But really, throwing out those type of things tells me someone had their mind made up before they found the "evidence." I really take it as similar to someone trying to get me to reconsider going out with the girl that gets good grades and has a nice personality. "She is a very technically proficient kisser and has a great, wry sense of humor. Did I mention her ACT score?"
    Last edited by traderumor; 02-06-2011 at 10:34 PM.
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  7. #66
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    Re: Ohio State hoops 2010-11

    nm
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  8. #67
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    Re: Ohio State hoops 2010-11

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    I will have to plead complete ignorance to your evidence, but my first thought is that a ball/clock control team like them would score high in something measuring efficiency.
    While it's true that teams "like Wisconsin" tend to score at a more efficient rate, I don't think it has all that much to do with "ball control."

    The longer you hold onto the ball, the more of a chance there is for a turnover, and if you're holding on to the ball just to slow down the game(Wisconsin doesn't do that,) that means you're using 10-15 seconds of clock without really having any particular benefit from offense.

    FWIW, Ohio State averages 63 possessions per game while Wisconsin average 57. Say they split the difference and play 60 possessions each this game, Ohio State would be averaging a 69-60 win over every other opponent, while Wisconsin would be averaging a 72-62 win over every other conference opponent.

    As for other Badger teams being more talented, while I disagree with Jordan Taylor or Jon Leuer as All American quality players, Wisconsin's never really depended on All-Americans.

    Aside from Devin Harris, have they ever had a 1st round draft pick?

    Given that the two teams seem to be evenly matched statistically, and the game is in Wisconsin, I'd give the slight edge to the Badgers.
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    Re: Ohio State hoops 2010-11

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post

    Aside from Devin Harris, have they ever had a 1st round draft pick?
    Alando Tucker.
    When all is said and done more is said than done.

  10. #69
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    Re: Ohio State hoops 2010-11

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    FWIW, Ohio State averages 63 possessions per game while Wisconsin average 57. Say they split the difference and play 60 possessions each this game, Ohio State would be averaging a 69-60 win over every other opponent, while Wisconsin would be averaging a 72-62 win over every other conference opponent.
    The key to beating OSU is to limit the offensive possessions and make the Buckeyes defend deep in to the shot clock. Play a game similar to that of Northwestern, take the air out of the ball, work with the final 15 seconds of the shot clock, and hit your 3's. If there is anytime in the country right now that can do that to a T and be successful its Wisconsin.

  11. #70
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Ohio State hoops 2010-11

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    While it's true that teams "like Wisconsin" tend to score at a more efficient rate, I don't think it has all that much to do with "ball control."

    The longer you hold onto the ball, the more of a chance there is for a turnover, and if you're holding on to the ball just to slow down the game(Wisconsin doesn't do that,) that means you're using 10-15 seconds of clock without really having any particular benefit from offense.

    FWIW, Ohio State averages 63 possessions per game while Wisconsin average 57. Say they split the difference and play 60 possessions each this game, Ohio State would be averaging a 69-60 win over every other opponent, while Wisconsin would be averaging a 72-62 win over every other conference opponent.

    As for other Badger teams being more talented, while I disagree with Jordan Taylor or Jon Leuer as All American quality players, Wisconsin's never really depended on All-Americans.

    Aside from Devin Harris, have they ever had a 1st round draft pick?

    Given that the two teams seem to be evenly matched statistically, and the game is in Wisconsin, I'd give the slight edge to the Badgers.
    I'm not sure I agree with that premise in basketball. Teams with short possessions are likely playing high risk/high reward basketball, using more possessions to create more scoring opportunities. Anecdotally, higher turnover teams tend to be playing at a faster pace has been my observation. A ball/clock control team, by definition, is going to get thumped if they turn the ball over at a high rate.
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  12. #71
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    Re: Ohio State hoops 2010-11

    TR, I think you're correct in seeing the correlation, but I disagree about the cause.
    Teams that play slow "ball control" don't do so because it makes them more efficient, they do so because they are efficient. Lower possessions is a result of not as many turnovers on either side. Because a team like Wisconsin is comfortable enough in its base offense, it gambles less often on defense and forces long possessions. Because of this, they also get relatively fewer transition baskets.

    The strategy you are speaking of is much more prevalent in smaller conferences, with one notable exception, the ACC where teams routinely score in the 80s and 90s. This is because these teams will play more possessions, but will give up a lot more baskets on defense as a result.

    As for using this strategy to beat Ohio State, again I don't think this strategy is necessarily an end all be all strategy, but what it does is keep lesser teams from getting blown out, and if the game is within 10 points in the last 10 minutes, it's a lot easier to win with a few 3 pointers in a row.

    Wisconsin is not a lesser team to the degree that Michigan or Northwestern were either and are less of a threat to be blown out, so they'll probably play a game fairly close to what Ohio State has averaged, somewhere between 57(Wisconsin's Average) and 63(Ohio State's average.)
    When people say that I donít know what Iím talking about when it comes to sports or writing, I think: Man, you should see me in the rest of my life.
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  13. #72
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    Re: Ohio State hoops 2010-11

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Thanks for the actually. I've seen a lot of Wiscy teams over the years, they usually have more talent on the floor than they do this year. Your opinion of the two players is an exaggeration. Maybe in the Big 10, but "two of the very best players in America" would make them 1st team All-Americans. Will they make Honorable or Special Mention?

    I will have to plead complete ignorance to your evidence, but my first thought is that a ball/clock control team like them would score high in something measuring efficiency. But really, throwing out those type of things tells me someone had their mind made up before they found the "evidence." I really take it as similar to someone trying to get me to reconsider going out with the girl that gets good grades and has a nice personality. "She is a very technically proficient kisser and has a great, wry sense of humor. Did I mention her ACT score?"
    It's no exaggeration. You can be two of the best players in America without being first-team All-Americans. Surely you don't believe that you can only carry that label if you're one of the top-5 players in America? I would say if you're in the top 10, 15 or top 20, the label still fits. Leuer and Taylor would be considered just that by most peoples' definition. They're both in line to be first-team All-Big Ten selections.

    Ball control has very little to do with efficiency. Effiency is about how many points you score per possession. Going slower doesn't mean doing better.

    Case in point, using KenPom.com for my data (a great site to check out if you want to learn more about the use of tempo-free statistics in basketball): of the 25 slowest-playing teams in America, measured by possessions per game, and of which Wisconsin is the very slowest, only six of the 25 teams rank in the top-100 in the country at offensive efficiency. On the other end, of the 25 fastest teams in the country in tempo, nine (9) of the teams rank in the top-100 in efficiency. So slower does not equal more efficient.

    You say I had my mind made up before I found the evidence... it seems to me you are the one with your mind made up, as you're trying to downplay or completely ignore the evidence without understanding its' meaning or content. And no, I actually was already aware of the evidence because I follow college basketball very, very closely and watch a ton of it.

    This Wisconsin team is very, very good. Their defense is not as good as a few teams they've had in the past, but they're an excellent team none the less (as I said, 7th overall in efficiency margin, though today they are up to 5th, behind Ohio State, Texas, Kansas, and Duke).
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  14. #73
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Ohio State hoops 2010-11

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    It's no exaggeration. You can be two of the best players in America without being first-team All-Americans. Surely you don't believe that you can only carry that label if you're one of the top-5 players in America? I would say if you're in the top 10, 15 or top 20, the label still fits. Leuer and Taylor would be considered just that by most peoples' definition. They're both in line to be first-team All-Big Ten selections.

    Ball control has very little to do with efficiency. Effiency is about how many points you score per possession. Going slower doesn't mean doing better.

    Case in point, using KenPom.com for my data (a great site to check out if you want to learn more about the use of tempo-free statistics in basketball): of the 25 slowest-playing teams in America, measured by possessions per game, and of which Wisconsin is the very slowest, only six of the 25 teams rank in the top-100 in the country at offensive efficiency. On the other end, of the 25 fastest teams in the country in tempo, nine (9) of the teams rank in the top-100 in efficiency. So slower does not equal more efficient.

    You say I had my mind made up before I found the evidence... it seems to me you are the one with your mind made up, as you're trying to downplay or completely ignore the evidence without understanding its' meaning or content. And no, I actually was already aware of the evidence because I follow college basketball very, very closely and watch a ton of it.

    This Wisconsin team is very, very good. Their defense is not as good as a few teams they've had in the past, but they're an excellent team none the less (as I said, 7th overall in efficiency margin, though today they are up to 5th, behind Ohio State, Texas, Kansas, and Duke).
    Your original point about the two best players for Wisconsin identified them as "two of the very best in the nation." Your reply omitted the "very," but that was a very important modifier you used to help you make the point that I am underselling Wisconsin's team this year. I think that by a normal reading, it would not be unusual for one to translate that as "among top players in nation," which in college basketball language is 1st and 2nd team All-American, i.e. top 10 players.

    Regarding your proof, the main problem is that you present those facts as that is supposed to be convincing evidence to support your contention. Your evidence may have been accurate, properly presented, but I was failing to see how that was supposed to overturn someone's anecdotal opinion. Throwing out "offensive efficiency ranking" is stat dropping, not proving a point. Thus, the conclusion that your mind must have been made up because you certainly didn't meet any burden of proof with the evidence you provided.
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  15. #74
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    Re: Ohio State hoops 2010-11

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Your original point about the two best players for Wisconsin identified them as "two of the very best in the nation." Your reply omitted the "very," but that was a very important modifier you used to help you make the point that I am underselling Wisconsin's team this year. I think that by a normal reading, it would not be unusual for one to translate that as "among top players in nation," which in college basketball language is 1st and 2nd team All-American, i.e. top 10 players.

    Regarding your proof, the main problem is that you present those facts as that is supposed to be convincing evidence to support your contention. Your evidence may have been accurate, properly presented, but I was failing to see how that was supposed to overturn someone's anecdotal opinion. Throwing out "offensive efficiency ranking" is stat dropping, not proving a point. Thus, the conclusion that your mind must have been made up because you certainly didn't meet any burden of proof with the evidence you provided.
    Efficiency is the very framework of winning basketball games. It encompasses everything that happens in a basketball game. So I don't see why that shouldn't meet the burden of proof. It just goes back to my main point: I think you have your mind made up and don't want to hear differently.

    Efficiency is basically scoring margin, except that it adjusts for a different tempo and accounts for competition. For instance... winning a game by 12 points in a game of 80 possessions is not nearly as impressive as winning a game by 10 points in 60 possessions. Efficiency accounts for that. It also takes into account who you beat and when because the raw numbers are adjusted based on your opponent.

    So if you're trying to suggest efficiency doesn't meet the burden of proof, then basically you're trying to eliminate any evidence that goes against your preconceived opinion, because it doesn't get much more of an overall descriptive stat than that.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  16. #75
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    Re: Ohio State hoops 2010-11

    Leuer was selected Big Ten Player of the Week. Sullinger was once again anointed Big Ten Freshman of the Week. Should be one of the best Big Ten games of the season.


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