2011/2012 UC Basketball official thread

[dabvu2498]

Dear ESPN,

Don't take away UC's game with Duke and then cry that they don't play anyone out of conference.

Thanks,
paint

Still, it just would have given them just 3 non-conference games against teams with RPIs over 100 and just 2 over 50. And I doubt UD stays over 50. They have issues scoring. Big issues.

Compared to 7 games against teams with RPIs 273 or worse.

No one is saying schedule a murderer's row with this squad, but the cupcakes could have been slightly less tasty.

[BearcatShane]

If UC played a top 20 non conference schedule, it would of taken 10 Big East wins to make the tournament. UC did play a really bad non conference schedule so it'll take 11-12 Big East wins to make the tournament.

My point is yes they have to do some extra work, but not a ton, win 1 or 2 more games in league play and they are in. When your in a power 6 conference, you make your case in conference play.

[BearcatShane]

This whole topic has been beaten into the ground but I'm going to give my two cents on it again. It's really annoying how some people think Mick Cronin is doing a subpar job at UC. He got here five years ago with ONE player, and that player was a below average Big East power forward in Cedric McGowan. Hello! So Mick recruits a bunch of JUCO's who if it wasn't for an extremely poorly timed firing on Bob Huggins, just about all these JUCO's would have never even been looked at by UC. Then Mick loses a ton of games in his first two years with these guys then everyone thinks he can't coach. Then the JUCO's graduate and people are acting like year 3 is the year for Mick, like it's make or break because he had this top 25 recruiting class and he should be able to go 22-8 in the Big East with all these freshman and sophomores with not one player who had been there to teach the young guys what Cincinnati Basketball is and how its played. They go through the year at 16 and 14 and this is when most everyone started to turn on Mick and get the idea that he can't coach. He then gets Lance Stephenson and they gain some hype and they go to Maui and win two games and people think Cincinnati Basketball is finally back but they fail to make the tournament again and everyone but a select few are dead set that Cronin sucks. The reason I bring all this up is because it seems like a lot of people are writing off UC's 14-0 start. Yes, they have not played a good schedule and I understand that but I have heard many people talk and they almost openly root for Cronin to fail and they are 100% certain that as soon as UC gets in the middle of the Big East they will get drilled. Can't people at least wait and see? They are finally on solid ground and have seniors who have been here and are willing to teach the younger players. I just wish people would give Cronin more of a chance now that he is on solid ground and has the caliber of players that he wanted and had actual time to recruit. He's a Cincinnati guy and I think he can be very successful. I just wish all UC fans could get behind him. Indiana is going through a very similar situation, it takes time to get back to prominence after a program has been wrecked.

[Caveat Emperor]

I just wish people would give Cronin more of a chance now that he is on solid ground and has the caliber of players that he wanted and had actual time to recruit. He's a Cincinnati guy and I think he can be very successful. I just wish all UC fans could get behind him. Indiana is going through a very similar situation, it takes time to get back to prominence after a program has been wrecked.

Trouble is, he's such a boring dude -- and his teams, historically, have played a boring brand of basketball. If you want to engage and energize a fanbase, you do that not only by winning, but by playing with an up-tempo and intense style.

[paintmered]

Trouble is, he's such a boring dude -- and his teams, historically, have played a boring brand of basketball. If you want to engage and energize a fanbase, you do that not only by winning, but by playing with an up-tempo and intense style.

Cronin often said that he wants to play a pressing, up-tempo game. He lacked the guard play and depth to actually pull it off.

UC is doing it more now this year.

[nmculbreth]

they fail to make the tournament again and everyone but a select few are dead set that Cronin sucks..

While I recognize that Cronin came into a very bad situation, I think he deserves much of the criticism that he has received. Despite bringing in a number of well regarded recruits, very few players have actually improved in their time here. While other teams seem to get better toward the end of the year, Cronin's UC teams have typically struggled (though some might say choked) down the stretch. IMHO the consistent lack of development falls squarely on the coaching staff.

That said this team looks like it may have turned the corner. They're playing much better as a team than they have in years past and hopefully that will translate into wins down the stretch.

[Boss-Hog]

While I recognize that Cronin came into a very bad situation, I think he deserves much of the criticism that he has received. Despite bringing in a number of well regarded recruits, very few players have actually improved in their time here. While other teams seem to get better toward the end of the year, Cronin's UC teams have typically struggled (though some might say choked) down the stretch. IMHO the consistent lack of development falls squarely on the coaching staff.

That said this team looks like it may have turned the corner. They're playing much better as a team than they have in years past and hopefully that will translate into wins down the stretch.

Very well said.

[SeeinRed]

While I recognize that Cronin came into a very bad situation, I think he deserves much of the criticism that he has received. Despite bringing in a number of well regarded recruits, very few players have actually improved in their time here. While other teams seem to get better toward the end of the year, Cronin's UC teams have typically struggled (though some might say choked) down the stretch. IMHO the consistent lack of development falls squarely on the coaching staff.

That said this team looks like it may have turned the corner. They're playing much better as a team than they have in years past and hopefully that will translate into wins down the stretch.

The recruits not developing argument and team falling off at the end of the year is not suprising. For one, most of the actual "well regarded" recruits that he brought in are still on this team and have noticably improved. Wright, Dixon, Bishop, Thomas, and yes even Gates have improved their game this year. Dixon and Bishop are the most improved of the group and they have really taken off so far this year. Players like Larry Davis are even giving more quality minutes than last year. It really is a tired argument IMO.

As for falling off at the end of the year, Cronin has not been afforded the luxury of Depth until this year because the recruiting is actually starting to pay off. Cronin doesn't have to dig deep to find the depth he needed for his style of play in JUCO for the first time. That lack of depth really starts to wear on the players towards the end of the year. They simply ran out of steam. Quite understandable IMO.

This years team is the type of team you will see in the future from Cronin. Press, tenacious D, and team oriented offense. You have to have the athletes for it and Cronin finally does.

[BearcatShane]

I get the argument of how players really didn't get better in Mick's first couple of years but I have a counter-argument. In my opinion, in order for young players to improve I think it's important to already have players who have been there and done that to show them the ropes and teach the young players how hard you have to work and how things need to be done. Mick did not have that. He does now and look at how Dion Dixon and Cash Wright are doing now. Thats all part of what I mean when I say the program is now on solid ground, they have upper-classmen that have been here and are willing to teach the younger players. Lets hope it works out and UC wins a lot more games this year.

Now, I probably sound like Mick Cronin's mother and I really do not want to come off that way but I am just confident he is a good coach. I hope he proves me right.

[nmculbreth]

For one, most of the actual "well regarded" recruits that he brought in are still on this team and have noticably improved. Wright, Dixon, Bishop, Thomas, and yes even Gates have improved their game this year. Dixon and Bishop are the most improved of the group and they have really taken off so far this year. Players like Larry Davis are even giving more quality minutes than last year. It really is a tired argument IMO.

I'll be the first to admit that this team looks better than any team that Cronin has had at UC. It's kind of tough to measure how much better his players are given that they've yet to really play anyone decent but I'm cautiously optimistic.

That said, it's a "tired argument" because up until this season it has been true. Can you name a single player who has gotten appreciably better in their time at UC? Deonta Vaugh peaked as a sophomore and had his worst season as a senior. Anthony McClain and Darnell Wilks were both top 75 recruits and four years later neither have been able to contribute in any meaningful way. Yancy Gates was a top 25 recruit and three years later he's largely the same player he was when he first walked on campus. Stephenson was a McDonalds All-American and showed very little improvement during his one season at UC.

While I don't think it's fair to blame a coach when a player doesn't develop, when a pattern like this emerges I think it's perfectly fair to question what the coaching staff is doing.

[BearcatShane]

Wilks has been productive this year, he doesn't score a ton but he does a lot of good things on the court. Bishop has improved his scoring every year and Dixon and Cashmere Wright have seemed to improve, albeit vs questionable competition at times so the jury may still be out.

[paintmered]

Biggie's foot problems severely limited his practice time, which resulted in his stunted development.

Also, Wilks was headed to prep school when Cronin lost a recruit at the last second and brought Wilks in a year early. Wilks should have redshirted as a freshman but Cronin didn't have that luxury back then.

[NorrisHopper30]

I can't believe some people are still saying that UC isn't good because they have a bad schedule...since when does your schedule affect how good you are?? Would Duke be bad with our schedule???

[Boston Red]

I can't believe some people are still saying that UC isn't good because they have a bad schedule...since when does your schedule affect how good you are?? Would Duke be bad with our schedule???

I think it's more that no one has any idea if UC is any good (or how good they might be) since they haven't played any decent competition (save for maybe Dayton). Probably won't find much more out Thursday night either (unless they lose, of course).

[Redlegs23]

The whole soft schedule thing is driving me crazy. Playing a tough non-conference schedule does not suddenly put a bubble team in the tourney. Playing the games alone will not do jack squat for the team. It's all about quality wins. If you lose those tough non-conference games then you're digging a bigger hole before the brutal Big East schedule begins. UC will have plenty, plenty, plenty of opportunities to get quality wins in Big East play.

For example, if UC played two tough non-conference games and lost them both, and then finished with 10 Big East wins, they probably would not make the tourney. The committee would see that they did ok in conference, but the only two tough non-conference games they played they got beat. Likewise, if they play the current schedule and only win 10 Big East games, again, they will likely miss out on the tourney.

However, if they won 10 Big East games and split the two tough hypothetical non-conference games there's a decent chance they would get in with that extra quality win. Likewise, with their current schedule if they win 11 conference games there's a decent chance they get in.

Quality wins with no bad losses people, that's what will get teams in the tournament. Just because a team plays a couple tough non-conference games does not mean they will automatically win them.

Teams in lesser conferences must play tough non-conference schedules because there may be only 3-4 chances at getting decent in conference wins. In the Big East you have about 10 chances at getting quality wins in conference, which pretty much eliminates the need to beat anybody in the non-conference schedule.

Someone posted on another board that outside of the Big East the highest number of top 50 RPI games any team in the top 25 has remaining on their schedule is 4. UC has 10 top 50 RPI games remaining. I repeat, UC does not need a tough non-conference schedule since they are in the Big East! At the end of the day UC's strength of schedule will be right up there with most of the other BCS schools.

And one more thing to add, Dayton will end up being a decent win (I think they're 13-3 now with only a few tough games remaining), and if we beat Xavier tonight that will also look like a quality win at the end of the year.