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Thread: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

  1. #16
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Why shouldn't Drew Stubbs bat lead off? Simple, you don't put a guy who can hit you 25 HR's in a spot where hardly anyone is going to be on base for them.
    Which is exactly why adding a real leadoff hitter is so essentilal for the Reds in 2011. Stubbs in the middle of the lineup is far more valuable than him leading off.
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  3. #17
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    A label of "leadoff hitter"...top of the order, get on base so that the middle of the order can drive them in with extra base hits. Is there a prototype for that other than "gets on base?"
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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    A label of "leadoff hitter"...top of the order, get on base so that the middle of the order can drive them in with extra base hits. Is there a prototype for that other than "gets on base?"
    Ideally you want a top of the order guy who doesn't have much power, but still gets on base often. You are typically going to waste power in the leadoff spot when no one is on base, so guys with power bat further down in the line up.

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    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Ideally you want a top of the order guy who doesn't have much power, but still gets on base often. You are typically going to waste power in the leadoff spot when no one is on base, so guys with power bat further down in the line up.
    Huh, power is never a bad thing Doug. Rickey Henderson was maybe the ultimate leadoff guy and he had some pop. Hit as many as 28 HR's in a season (twice) and 297 for his career. I do agree there comes a point where you have to maybe consider a guy further down the lineup if he has significant power production but if he possesses the other ingredients to be a prime leadoff hitter I think you lead him off despite the power. Or at the very least hit him #2. Those leadoff qualities are just too tough to find and power isn't as tough to find for lower in the lineup.
    Last edited by Mario-Rijo; 12-23-2010 at 09:19 AM.
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    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Why shouldn't Drew Stubbs bat lead off? Simple, you don't put a guy who can hit you 25 HR's in a spot where hardly anyone is going to be on base for them.
    Rickey Henderson thinks you're crazy
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    Huh, power is never a bad thing Doug. Rickey Henderson was maybe the ultimate leadoff guy and he had some pop. Hit as many as 28 HR's in a season (twice) and 297 for his career. I do agree there comes a point where you have to maybe consider a guy further down the lineup if he has significant power production but if he possesses the other ingredients to be a prime leadoff hitter I think you lead him off despite the power. Or at the very least hit him #2. Those leadoff qualities are just too tough to find and power isn't as tough to find for lower in the lineup.
    Yeah, but Stubbs doesn't possess the other ingredients. If he had a .400 OBP, like Rickey Henderson, nobody would care that his 25 HRs were "wasted". The question is, "where will Stubbs generate the most runs, leadoff or 6th?" I say he's and ideal 6th hitter, because his power will drive in runs, and his speed will get him in scoring position so the weaker bats at the bottom of the order can drive him in by hitting singles.

  8. #22
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Rickey Henderson thinks you're crazy
    I think the managers who hit Rickey Henderson leadoff were crazy. That dude should have been hitting 2-5. He was a very good hitter and they wasted some of his talents in the leadoff spot.

  9. #23
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    I want my leadoff hitter (or any hitter) to avoid outs and acquirer bases.

    The more bases he acquirers the better, it leads to run production.

  10. #24
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    I want my leadoff hitter (or any hitter) to avoid outs and acquirer bases.

    The more bases he acquirers the better, it leads to run production.
    Then why don't we just hit Votto first? He best fits your description. While I agree that your description is good, you want guys who fit your description batting beyond leadoff because those extra bases they acquire also move guys up those extra bases as well.

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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo View Post
    Huh, power is never a bad thing Doug. Rickey Henderson was maybe the ultimate leadoff guy and he had some pop. Hit as many as 28 HR's in a season (twice) and 297 for his career. I do agree there comes a point where you have to maybe consider a guy further down the lineup if he has significant power production but if he possesses the other ingredients to be a prime leadoff hitter I think you lead him off despite the power. Or at the very least hit him #2. Those leadoff qualities are just too tough to find and power isn't as tough to find for lower in the lineup.
    Rickey Henderson was the greatest lead-off hitter of all time though. He OBP'd .394 or higher 18/20 years from 1980 to 1998. He is a hall of famer. Drew Stubbs will never be in the same discussion as Rickey Henderson, and should not be now.

    While Rickey had some pop he only hit over 20 home runs 4 times in his career. He really didn't pack a lot of power. Stubbs has light tower power. Not to mention Rickey was an absolute pest when it came to making the pitcher work, and work deep.

    Another difference is Rickey spent a majority of his career in the AL, where he was not batting after the pitcher, but was instead batting after another MLB hitter.
    "Today was the byproduct of us thinking we can come back from anything." - Joey Votto after blowing a 10-1 lead and holding on for the 12-11 win on 8/25/2010.

  12. #26
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    If teams had lineups full of Votto's and Pujols' then it would be okay to bat a 25 home run guy leadoff. But teams are full of players with different skills and each spot in the batting order is able to best capitalize on different skills.

    The leadoff spot capitalizes on OBP and minimizes the value of home runs and SLG. Spots 3-5 best capitalize on SLG Therefore, it's most productive to put high OBP, low SLG hitters in the top of the lineup, and high SLG guys in the middle.

    But all of this depends on who you have available.
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  13. #27
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    If teams had lineups full of Votto's and Pujols' then it would be okay to bat a 25 home run guy leadoff. But teams are full of players with different skills and each spot in the batting order is able to best capitalize on different skills.

    The leadoff spot capitalizes on OBP and minimizes the value of home runs and SLG. Spots 3-5 best capitalize on SLG Therefore, it's most productive to put high OBP, low SLG hitters in the top of the lineup, and high SLG guys in the middle.

    But all of this depends on who you have available.
    Too much trying to reinvent the wheel in this thread. Suggesting that the greatest lead off hitter in the history of baseball shouldn't have been hitting leadoff?

    What you said here makes the most sense to me and its what managers (even Abner LaRussa) have done throughout the course of baseball history. Put your hitters who are good at getting on base but lack power in front of your hitters that are good at both.

    We can bang our head against the wall as long as we want but the Joey Votto's of the world are going to hit 3rd and if your lucky enough to get a Ricky Henderson he is going to first.

  14. #28
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Too much trying to reinvent the wheel in this thread. Suggesting that the greatest lead off hitter in the history of baseball shouldn't have been hitting leadoff?

    What you said here makes the most sense to me and its what managers (even Abner LaRussa) have done throughout the course of baseball history. Put your hitters who are good at getting on base but lack power in front of your hitters that are good at both.

    We can bang our head against the wall as long as we want but the Joey Votto's of the world are going to hit 3rd and if your lucky enough to get a Ricky Henderson he is going to first.
    Eh, Babe Ruth would have been the greatest leadoff hitter too if someone hit him leadoff. Fact of the matter is, Rickey Henderson had 16 seasons of a 120 OPS+ (Jay Bruce for example was at 127 this season) or higher (including leading the league in OPS in 1990 where his OPS+ was much better than Joey Votto's was this past season). He shouldn't have been hitting leadoff with a profile like that, regardless of how fast and good of a base stealer he was.

  15. #29
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Then why don't we just hit Votto first? He best fits your description. While I agree that your description is good, you want guys who fit your description batting beyond leadoff because those extra bases they acquire also move guys up those extra bases as well.
    I'm not saying Votto should lead off. What I am saying is,

    If Stubbs leads off the game I want him to avoid makeing an out. If he walks or hits a single that's good.

    If he hits a double that's great. If he hits a triple that's better. If he hits a HR that's even better.

  16. #30
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    I'm not saying Votto should lead off. What I am saying is,

    If Stubbs leads off the game I want him to avoid makeing an out. If he walks or hits a single that's good.

    If he hits a double that's great. If he hits a triple that's better. If he hits a HR that's even better.
    Well sure, but if Drew Stubbs is going to hit 20+ HR's, you shouldn't bat him 1st no matter how often he gets on base because you are wasting his power up there.


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