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Thread: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

  1. #46
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by pedro View Post
    Ricky was usually not only the fastest guy on his teams but the best. To me, giving him more AB's then everyone else was the best plan.
    Totally agree. However, Ricky's....Ricky. You can't really compare him to ANYBODY. IMO, he was the most exciting player to watch that I ever got the pleasure to watch. I've never seen one player change the scope of the game more than Henderson. Probably my favorite non-Red all time (at least top 5 for sure)
    Chapman to the rotation!!!! Do it already!!!!

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  3. #47
    Please come again pedro's Avatar
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    Plus having him on base distracting the pitcher and forcing the fielders to hold him on certainly was advantageous to the batters that followed him.
    Get your nunchucks and the keys to your dad's car. I know where we can get a gun

  4. #48
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Totally agree. However, Ricky's....Ricky. You can't really compare him to ANYBODY. IMO, he was the most exciting player to watch that I ever got the pleasure to watch. I've never seen one player change the scope of the game more than Henderson. Probably my favorite non-Red all time (at least top 5 for sure)
    Who is comparing him to Ricky? The point was power is wasted at the top vs. it isn't perse'. Doug wants to take him out of the #1 hole because he has power and his dingers will be more solo than could be, understood. How about his (potential) OBP% and Speed being wasted with Ramon bouncing to 2nd on a regular basis, or Janish pulling it to SS? Putting him in front of Votto be it at #1 or #2 I think offsets the loss of RBI with Runs scored (and then some IMO). Now I will admit hitting him #2 gives you a little bit better of both worlds ideally speaking.

    I just simply think power is more plentiful than OBP% and speed combined so you take advantage of the lesser available commodity. Gomes could potentially out slug Drew in a given year so it's not hard to replace his pop down in the order but try finding a guy with the ability to score his potential for scoring.
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  5. #49
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...html?eref=sihp

    Fun to see that Sheehan sees Stubbs possibly making the superstar leap.

    Not fun to see him project the Reds missing the postseason.

  6. #50
    SERP deep cover ops WebScorpion's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    I like Stubbs as the leadoff hitter. If he can become a polished bunter, he could jack his OBP up into the acceptable, even exceptional level. His OBP is already 75 points higher than his BA, so getting his average into the .280 range would do the trick. I think he can do it.
    I much prefer him at leadoff than #2. Phillips is a better #2 hitter (he hits better there than in the leadoff spot) and if Stubbs steals second nobody will walk Phillips to get to Votto and Bruce. If Stubbs is batting #2 and steals second, Votto gets walked immediately. Plus you have Phillips in the leadoff, stealing and getting thrown out 60% of the time. Bat Phillips #2 and never let him steal; let Stubbs run rampant from the #1 spot.
    Yes, he's got more power than you'd like in the leadoff spot, but power is ALSO wasted if you leadoff with Janish or have him at #2, but it's Votto and Bruce's power being wasted since nobody is ever on base for them. I like Stubbs in the #6 hole too, but he's the best leadoff option we have on THIS team.
    I'd tell him I want to see him try to bunt his way on at least once every series in 2011. That's about 50 bunts and if he's successful 25% (I think it will be MUCH higher than that) of the time, he'd add 13 hits. That would put him in the .280 range and bump his OBP up to the .350-.360 range...an above average leadoff hitter who can make pitchers nervous with his ability to steal.
    He's not the ideal leadoff hitter, but he's the player with the best chance to be an above average leadoff hitter on THIS team. That's my

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  7. #51
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    I too am coming around to the idea of Stubbs hitting leadoff. I understand the arguement that his power is 'watsed' in the #1 slot. However, he will get a lot more ABs as a #1 hitter vs a #6 hitter. I am guessing ~80.
    I'd also like to see Stubbs let loose with his speed. Both bunting as well as swiping 75 bases. Either he or the Reds played it safe last year. Time to let him fly.

    Based on who is still available I'd like the Reds to get Fred Lewis to play LF vs a right handed starter. steals a few bases at ~80% success rate. obp ~350 & ops ~800 vs right handed starters the last few years.

    vs a right handed starter:
    Stubbs
    Lewis (L)
    Votto (L)
    Rolen (when Francisco plays bat Bruce 4th & Francisco ~6th)
    Bruce (L)
    Phillips
    Hanigan/Hernandez
    Janish/Cozart

    vs a left handed starter:
    Stubbs
    Phillips
    Votto (L)
    Rolen
    Gomes or Heisey
    Bruce (L)
    Hanigan/Hernandez
    Janish/Cozart
    .

  8. #52
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    All this talk about Stubbs and bunting is starting to bother me. Take a look at this list of players who have led the league in bunt hits recently.

    Two things should stick out: height and handedness. All are smaller guys, 10 of the 13 are lefthanded. It should be clear to folks that Stubbs, even though he's very fast, is at a disadvantage when it comes to being an effective bunter.

    Year Name Bunts Hits Pct
    1992 Brett Butler 67 40 .597
    1992 Kenny Lofton 67 31 .463
    2003 Alex Sanchez 64 31 .484
    2005 Willy Taveras 59 30 .508
    2003 Juan Pierre 70 29 .414
    2004 Alex Sanchez 58 29 .500
    2007 Willy Taveras 36 27 .750
    2005 Juan Pierre 59 25 .424
    2002 Juan Pierre 52 24 .462
    1971 Del Unser 36 23 .639
    1979 Frank Taveras 28 23 .821
    1991 Otis Nixon 50 23 .460
    1990 Brett Butler 45 22 .489
    1969 Bobby Tolan 34 21 .618
    1980 Frank Taveras 24 21 .875
    1991 Brett Butler 43 21 .488
    1993 Brett Butler 49 21 .429
    1995 Otis Nixon 34 21 .618
    2006 Willy Taveras 38 21 .553
    1964 Maury Wills 43 20 .465
    1964 Don Blasingame 23 20 .870
    1965 Maury Wills 34 20 .588
    1979 Paul Molitor 34 20 .588
    1989 Brett Butler 38 20 .526
    1997 Otis Nixon 35 20 .571
    1998 Neifi Perez 34 20 .588
    2004 Juan Pierre 46 20 .435

    Because he's 6'5" -- and with a high setup to his stance -- it takes Stubbs a lot longer, relatively speaking, to get into bunting position, meaning one of two things: either he starts as late as possible -- so as not to tip off fielders until absolutely necessary -- result being, he's got less time to react to the pitch; or, he starts soon, to give himself time to get into position and react to the pitch, yet this tips off fielders earlier than if the bunter were a smaller, more compact guy. Additionally, he's got a longer way to go to get down to balls below the belt, which are the easier balls to bunt.

    Factor in that Stubbs is righthanded, putting him farther from 1B than a LH hitter has to go, and it's ludicrous to assume that simply a lot of practice would allow him to get to 20 bunt basehits a year (which would put him near the top of the league).

    There have been some epic misunderstandings about this player, and this is the latest one.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  9. #53
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    All this talk about Stubbs and bunting is starting to bother me. Take a look at this list of players who have led the league in bunt hits recently.

    Two things should stick out: height and handedness. All are smaller guys, 10 of the 13 are lefthanded. It should be clear to folks that Stubbs, even though he's very fast, is at a disadvantage when it comes to being an effective bunter.

    Year Name Bunts Hits Pct
    1992 Brett Butler 67 40 .597
    1992 Kenny Lofton 67 31 .463
    2003 Alex Sanchez 64 31 .484
    2005 Willy Taveras 59 30 .508
    2003 Juan Pierre 70 29 .414
    2004 Alex Sanchez 58 29 .500
    2007 Willy Taveras 36 27 .750
    2005 Juan Pierre 59 25 .424
    2002 Juan Pierre 52 24 .462
    1971 Del Unser 36 23 .639
    1979 Frank Taveras 28 23 .821
    1991 Otis Nixon 50 23 .460
    1990 Brett Butler 45 22 .489
    1969 Bobby Tolan 34 21 .618
    1980 Frank Taveras 24 21 .875
    1991 Brett Butler 43 21 .488
    1993 Brett Butler 49 21 .429
    1995 Otis Nixon 34 21 .618
    2006 Willy Taveras 38 21 .553
    1964 Maury Wills 43 20 .465
    1964 Don Blasingame 23 20 .870
    1965 Maury Wills 34 20 .588
    1979 Paul Molitor 34 20 .588
    1989 Brett Butler 38 20 .526
    1997 Otis Nixon 35 20 .571
    1998 Neifi Perez 34 20 .588
    2004 Juan Pierre 46 20 .435

    Because he's 6'5" -- and with a high setup to his stance -- it takes Stubbs a lot longer, relatively speaking, to get into bunting position, meaning one of two things: either he starts as late as possible -- so as not to tip off fielders until absolutely necessary -- result being, he's got less time to react to the pitch; or, he starts soon, to give himself time to get into position and react to the pitch, yet this tips off fielders earlier than if the bunter were a smaller, more compact guy. Additionally, he's got a longer way to go to get down to balls below the belt, which are the easier balls to bunt.

    Factor in that Stubbs is righthanded, putting him farther from 1B than a LH hitter has to go, and it's ludicrous to assume that simply a lot of practice would allow him to get to 20 bunt basehits a year (which would put him near the top of the league).

    There have been some epic misunderstandings about this player, and this is the latest one.
    Another thing that sticks out from this list is that nearly all those guys are on the left-handed side of the batters box. Why would anyone want to waste Stubbs' 30-HR power potential on all that bunting anyway? I'll take a .260/.330/.450 hitter over a .280/.350/.390 hitter any day of the week.

  10. #54
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I think the managers who hit Rickey Henderson leadoff were crazy. That dude should have been hitting 2-5. He was a very good hitter and they wasted some of his talents in the leadoff spot.
    There's another school of thought though.
    Henderson was arguably one of the top 3 hitters on every team he ever played for.
    If you bat him leadoff, you maximize his at bats.

    I don't see how a leadoff HR is wasted. The team still gets a run for it.

    I am trying to remember, but didn't the Reds bat Stubbs near the top of the order towards the end of the year? I could've sworn they did, but maybe it was just a game or two.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

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  11. #55
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    I want my leadoff hitter (or any hitter) to avoid outs and acquirer bases.

    The more bases he acquirers the better, it leads to run productioner.
    Fixed that for ya...
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  12. #56
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    All this talk about Stubbs and bunting is starting to bother me. Take a look at this list of players who have led the league in bunt hits recently.
    I don't think the idea is to get him to bunt more often. I think the idea is to add that to his game which would help his overall game out.

  13. #57
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    I don't think the idea is to get him to bunt more often. I think the idea is to add that to his game which would help his overall game out.
    In my view, it's going to be tough for him to learn to be all that good at it -- to be able to bunt for a hit an acceptable % of the time he tries. The obstacles he faces, despite his speed, are significant.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  14. #58
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    For me I don't want Stubbs becoming Brett Butler. However, if Stubbs learns how to drop down a bunt it forces the 3rd baseman & 1rst baseman to play in a bit. Otherwise they can plat a few steps back. By forcing them in it gives them less time to react to ground balls & line drives. Basically the THREAT that he might bunt at any time will cause him to get more hits when he doesn't bunt.
    .

  15. #59
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    For me I don't want Stubbs becoming Brett Butler. However, if Stubbs learns how to drop down a bunt it forces the 3rd baseman & 1rst baseman to play in a bit. Otherwise they can plat a few steps back. By forcing them in it gives them less time to react to ground balls & line drives. Basically the THREAT that he might bunt at any time will cause him to get more hits when he doesn't bunt.
    In order for him to create the threat that he "might bunt at any time" he will have to bunt a lot. I think that would be counterproductive. He should try to hone his skill (and I think he has worked at it) so that when an opportunity arises -- easy pitcher to bunt off, 3rd baseman playing back or weak at defending bunts -- he can lay one down with a reasonable shot at success. But that should be the extent of it, IMO.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  16. #60
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Drew Stubbs: Lead Off Hitter

    Drew Stubbs made an out 50% of the time he bunted last year. He isn't very good at it. It's almost like Adam Dunn.... people want to turn him into something he isn't rather than embrace what he is.


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