Who is Redszone's #31 prospect?

[dougdirt]

I am not saying that Felix Perez doesn't have value, but why does he have more than Fleury or Barnhart? Both catchers play more valuable defensive positions well and swing pretty good sticks too. Sorry for digging; I am just curious about your thought process.

Barnhart has no power and his defensive tools aren't really that good. They are average-ish across the board. He is a real smart player, but tools wise he isn't exactly top of the line.

Fleury, I like his bat a little bit, but I still don't know how I feel about him sticking at catcher.

I just feel that Felix Perez has the upside of a starting outfielder (not a ton of praise), but his floor is probably that of a 5th outfielder too. Barnhart could have the ceiling of Jason Kendall at the plate, but his floor is incredibly low at this point because he has yet to even see full season ball. Fluery has some patience and some power, but there are some questions about his ability to stay at catcher and if he isn't a catcher, his bat isn't nearly as nice.

[mace]

Barnhart has no power and his defensive tools aren't really that good. They are average-ish across the board. He is a real smart player, but tools wise he isn't exactly top of the line.

I just feel that Felix Perez has the upside of a starting outfielder (not a ton of praise), but his floor is probably that of a 5th outfielder too. Barnhart could have the ceiling of Jason Kendall at the plate, but his floor is incredibly low at this point because he has yet to even see full season ball.

Have to disagree about Perez's floor. I saw him in only a couple games, and he actually hit the ball pretty well in those games, but his combination of size and swing inspired no confidence whatsoever; nor did his defense. I see his floor as AAA washout.

I haven't seen Barnhart, but if he is as smart and diligent as everybody says he is, I would think he could be an above-average catcher with average tools. It would come down to his arm, I suppose. If his arm is serviceable, I would think he could be an asset behind the plate. The power might be a more serious concern. Then again, Ryan Hanigan didn't make the big leagues on power.

[dougdirt]

Have to disagree about Perez's floor. I saw him in only a couple games, and he actually hit the ball pretty well in those games, but his combination of size and swing inspired no confidence whatsoever; nor did his defense. I see his floor as AAA washout.

When did you see him? What didn't you like about his swing?

[mace]

When did you see him? What didn't you like about his swing?

I saw him back-to-back when he was moved from Lynchburg to Carolina this year. First game at Winston-Salem, next in Zebulon. He had a couple doubles into the gap, I believe, but his swing looked very long, like a power hitter's. Trouble is, he's not a power hitter. At least, I don't think he is. His size certainly wouldn't indicate it. I just couldn't see that swing working for him in the long term. Plus, he misplayed a ball or two in the field. Not blatantly, but enough that I thought he should have prevented the ball from getting to the wall.

[Mario-Rijo]

Barnhart has no power and his defensive tools aren't really that good. They are average-ish across the board. He is a real smart player, but tools wise he isn't exactly top of the line.

Fleury, I like his bat a little bit, but I still don't know how I feel about him sticking at catcher.

I just feel that Felix Perez has the upside of a starting outfielder (not a ton of praise), but his floor is probably that of a 5th outfielder too. Barnhart could have the ceiling of Jason Kendall at the plate, but his floor is incredibly low at this point because he has yet to even see full season ball. Fluery has some patience and some power, but there are some questions about his ability to stay at catcher and if he isn't a catcher, his bat isn't nearly as nice.

I disagree with your synopsis on Barnharts defense Doug, but nice try. Some of the quickest feet you'll find in a catcher, above average receiver, accuracy, release and pop times at the lower end of the major league average (MLA 1.80 - 1.98).

PG Crosschecker:

Barnhart is a switch-hitting catcher with a middle infielder's body and quickness. In fact, Barnhart played primarily shortstop in his early teen years before moving behind the plate, and still plays second and third base at times. There isn't a position on the field that he's not capable of playing, and he even pitches on occasion. He's a baseball rat and scouts applaud his baseball IQ. His athleticism behind the plate is similar to a middle infielder's, and it makes Barnhart one of the top defensive catchers in the country. He is quick at shifting in either direction, and has a very accurate arm and instant release that regularly delivers pop times in the 1.8-second range-and as low as 1.76 at Perfect Game's National Showcase in Minneapolis last June.

Barnhart: 1.76 - 1.8
Mes: 1.75 - 1.9

And for comparisons sake Grandal was 2.12 coming out of college.

And according to you that is above average:

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2010/...ion-discussion

He has an above average arm. I have pop times from him in the 1.75-1.9 range throughout the season. He threw out over 40% of runners this year and that stretches back to last year if you cut out April and May when he was dealing with an elbow issue (2009). He is quite athletic behind the plate as well. The ‘concern’ is his number of passed balls he has allowed. I watched him over 20 times this season and I didn’t see one, which is weird because he did have quite a few. I think his receiving skills are just fine. I don’t think there should be any concern about him catching.

[Edd Roush]

Barnhart has no power and his defensive tools aren't really that good. They are average-ish across the board. He is a real smart player, but tools wise he isn't exactly top of the line.

Fleury, I like his bat a little bit, but I still don't know how I feel about him sticking at catcher.

I just feel that Felix Perez has the upside of a starting outfielder (not a ton of praise), but his floor is probably that of a 5th outfielder too. Barnhart could have the ceiling of Jason Kendall at the plate, but his floor is incredibly low at this point because he has yet to even see full season ball. Fluery has some patience and some power, but there are some questions about his ability to stay at catcher and if he isn't a catcher, his bat isn't nearly as nice.

Thanks for the input, Doug. I guess I'd rather vote for a guy who has upside than a guy who in the best case scenario "could be a starting outfielder." I think I am going with Fleury first and then Barnhart and then I might start looking at Perez.

[Edd Roush]

I disagree with your synopsis on Barnharts defense Doug, but nice try. Some of the quickest feet you'll find in a catcher, above average receiver, accuracy, release and pop times at the lower end of the major league average (MLA 1.80 - 1.98).

PG Crosschecker:



Barnhart: 1.76 - 1.8
Mes: 1.75 - 1.9

And for comparisons sake Grandal was 2.12 coming out of college.

And according to you that is above average:

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2010/...ion-discussion

Thanks for the info, Mario. Barnhart certainly is an exciting prospect and should be fun to watch in Dayton next year.

[dougdirt]

I disagree with your synopsis on Barnharts defense Doug, but nice try. Some of the quickest feet you'll find in a catcher, above average receiver, accuracy, release and pop times at the lower end of the major league average (MLA 1.80 - 1.98).

My reports say differently.

His pop time is mostly average. I timed him at 1.9 multiple times this season. He has quick feet, but his arm isn't all that good. Overall it leads to average pop times, but because its mostly made up of his feet, its not likely to get any better since the improvement factor isn't likely to happen.

The main difference though is that I have read that he is not an above average receiver and has some work to do in that department. He could be that guy one day, but right now, he isn't.

You are citing scouting reports from his high school days with Indiana High Schoolers pitching to him. It is a little easier to look stronger than you might actually be at the time when you are catching those types of guys. Another thing to be wary about with these scouting reports on skills, is that they often employ the future value rather than the present day value of ones skill.

[Pacerfan]

Dougdirt,
Have you ever seen Barnhart catch in person? He threw out 51% of his runners, and you claim his arm is "fringy". As for recieving skills, he is very polished for a kid right out of high school. Based on your evaluation, I would bet heavy that (1), you have never seen him play, or (2), you just have no idea what you're looking at when it comes to evaluating catchers.

[urdun]

Dougdirt,
Have you ever seen Barnhart catch in person? He threw out 51% of his runners, and you claim his arm is "fringy". As for recieving skills, he is very polished for a kid right out of high school. Based on your evaluation, I would bet heavy that (1), you have never seen him play, or (2), you just have no idea what you're looking at when it comes to evaluating catchers.

you tell him Tucker!

[dougdirt]

Dougdirt,
Have you ever seen Barnhart catch in person? He threw out 51% of his runners, and you claim his arm is "fringy". As for recieving skills, he is very polished for a kid right out of high school. Based on your evaluation, I would bet heavy that (1), you have never seen him play, or (2), you just have no idea what you're looking at when it comes to evaluating catchers.

Pacerfan, are you a professional scout? That is who I got my information from. He might be quite polished for a kid of out high school, but there is a large difference between being polished out of high school and being a good professional catcher. That isn't a knock on Tucker Barnhart, because the amount of 19 year olds who are actually good all around catchers and don't have quite a ways to go before they are ready to catch a game in the major leagues is limited to a handful of guys every 20 years or so.

As for his arm, his pop times that I recorded were in the average range. When you couple that with his excellent footwork (which speeds up the pop time), it tells me his arm isn't good (granted it isn't bad either or his pop times would be even slower despite the excellent footwork). The combination of solid pop times and accurate throws go a long way to a high CS rate, especially at the lower level of the minor leagues where guys are still learning to steal and fast guys generally have a green light a lot more often than they would otherwise even if they aren't good base stealers.

With all of this said, it isn't that I don't like Barnhart. I actually have him ranked #30 in my personal rankings.

[camisadelgolf]

I forget the protocol--if the leading vote-getters are within a vote or two of each other, is that all we need for a runoff vote? If so, I'll start it later this afternoon.

[mace]

I forget the protocol--if the leading vote-getters are within a vote or two of each other, is that all we need for a runoff vote? If so, I'll start it later this afternoon.

Can't think of anything else. Thanks.