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Thread: Firemen vs. Closers

  1. #16
    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Firemen vs. Closers

    I believe I started a similar thread about six or seven years ago.

    I have long felt the best bullpen pitcher needs to be in there, matched against the other team's best, when there is a threat to score critical runs. The thrill of strategy is a big part of baseball. When to play the ace in the hole or when to bring in the big gun?

    Partly in jest, I blame Tony LaRussa for developing the closer role so he wouldn't have to face critical second guessing on bullpen usage. It is easier for a manager to let the closer take the blame for not doing his job than to take the blame for employing the wrong guy at the wrong time.

    Btw, I believe Chapman needs to develop consistency with his fastball command more than he needs to develop a third pitch. Great fastball pitchers are not like the guys throwing 91 MPH fastballs. The overpowering guys just need command of their fastball and command of another pitch to throw off the batter's ability to time the great fastball. Randy Johnson had his slider. Koufax his curve. Soto his change.
    Last edited by Spitball; 01-30-2011 at 10:25 PM.
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

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  3. #17
    Member Spitball's Avatar
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    Re: Firemen vs. Closers

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post

    Mike Marshall has the record I believe of about 162 innings ( I believe he qualified for the ERA title) but it's been pretty rare. .
    Marshall pitched over 200 innings in 1974.
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

  4. #18
    HS Athletic Director alexad's Avatar
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    Looking over old baseball cards is awesome. My kids are 13 and 11 and they are getting into the old cards I had growing up in the late 70's early 80's. They like the term fireman.
    Taylor High School
    Home of the "Yellowjackets"

  5. #19
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Firemen vs. Closers

    Quote Originally Posted by alexad View Post
    They like the term fireman.
    I like it too, and it was fitting for the time.
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  6. #20
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Firemen vs. Closers

    Quote Originally Posted by Spitball View Post
    Marshall pitched over 200 innings in 1974.
    Marshall was an anomaly. In the 60s-70s, many teams were employing the bullpen ace and he might pitch 100-130 innings. For the Reds, you had Carroll and Granger, then Carroll and Borbon in the 100+ innings range, for example. The Twins used a Stan Williams/Ron Perranoski tandem in 1970 that racked up about 250 innings between them. Dick Selma pitched 130 innings for the Phillies that year. Now, we're hearing screams of abuse at 70-80 innings. Coco's arm was going to fall off last year because he was on pace to pitch that many innings with some early season frequent calls.

    These guys today, all a bunch of sissies
    Can't win with 'em

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  7. #21
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Firemen vs. Closers

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post

    These guys today, all a bunch of sissies


    Especially considering they have better training and better doctors, and make more coin.
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  8. #22
    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Firemen vs. Closers

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Marshall was an anomaly. In the 60s-70s, many teams were employing the bullpen ace and he might pitch 100-130 innings. For the Reds, you had Carroll and Granger, then Carroll and Borbon in the 100+ innings range, for example. The Twins used a Stan Williams/Ron Perranoski tandem in 1970 that racked up about 250 innings between them. Dick Selma pitched 130 innings for the Phillies that year. Now, we're hearing screams of abuse at 70-80 innings. Coco's arm was going to fall off last year because he was on pace to pitch that many innings with some early season frequent calls.

    These guys today, all a bunch of sissies
    Borbon averaged over 70 appearances a year and over 125 innings pitched a year over a six year period from 1972-77.

    That close pitching two innings every other day... for six years in a row and he had an 3.06 ERA over that period (118 ERA+) A very unsung hero of the Big Red Machine.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

  9. #23
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Firemen vs. Closers

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    Borbon averaged over 70 appearances a year and over 125 innings pitched a year over a six year period from 1972-77.

    That close pitching two innings every other day... for six years in a row and he had an 3.06 ERA over that period (118 ERA+) A very unsung hero of the Big Red Machine.
    Yea, my dad used Borbon to teach me what the term "rubber arm" meant. My mom always had one Red she picked on. BRM era was Clay Carroll. She claimed every time she watched him pitch, he'd stink and blow the lead. Obviously, his numbers show him getting someone out, mom
    Can't win with 'em

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  10. #24
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Firemen vs. Closers

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Yea, my dad used Borbon to teach me what the term "rubber arm" meant. My mom always had one Red she picked on. BRM era was Clay Carroll. She claimed every time she watched him pitch, he'd stink and blow the lead. Obviously, his numbers show him getting someone out, mom
    Funny. My mom used to complain about Carroll too. She always said that he must be Sparky Anderson's brother because he used him so much.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  11. #25
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Firemen vs. Closers

    Relievers with 120 plus IP


    Code:
    SEASON
    
    GAMES displayed only--not a sorting criteria
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    GAMES STARTED <= 2
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    INNINGS PITCHED               YEAR     IP        G       GF      RSAA      GS       SV     
    1    Mike Marshall            1974    208.1      106       83       20        0       21   
    2    Andy Karl                1945    181         67       41       17        2       15   
    3    Mike Marshall            1973    179         92       73       24        0       31   
    4    Bob Stanley              1982    168.1       48       33       26        0       14   
    5    Bill Campbell            1976    167.2       78       68        9        0       20   
    6    Eddie Fisher             1965    165         82       60       13        0       24   
    T7   Wilbur Wood              1968    159         88       46       20        2       16   
    T7   Hoyt Wilhelm             1952    159         71       32       25        0       11   
    T9   Dick Radatz              1964    157         79       67       26        0       29   
    T9   Mark Eichhorn            1986    157         69       38       46        0       10   
    11   Garland Braxton          1927    156         58       32       16        2       13   
    12   Jim Konstanty            1950    152         74       62       20        0       22   
    13   Jack Lamabe              1963    151         65       20       12        2        6   
    14   John Hiller              1974    150         59       52       22        0       13   
    15   Tom Johnson              1977    147         71       54       18        0       15   
    16   Bob Stanley              1983    145.1       64       53       21        0       33   
    T17  Wayne Granger            1969    145         90       55       13        0       27   
    T17  Hoyt Wilhelm             1953    145         68       39       18        0       15   
    19   Sammy Stewart            1983    144.1       58       21        7        1        7   
    T20  Steve Foucault           1974    144         69       53       19        0       12   
    T20  Clay Carroll             1968    144         68       44       11        1       17   
    T20  Hoyt Wilhelm             1965    144         66       45       21        0       20   
    23   Jim Kern                 1979    143         71       57       42        0       29   
    T24  Charlie Hough            1976    142.2       77       55       19        0       18   
    T24  Mike Marshall            1979    142.2       90       84       31        1       32   
    26   Joe Black                1952    142         56       41       26        2       15   
    27   Goose Gossage            1975    141.2       62       49       33        0       26   
    28   Joe Page                 1947    141         56       44       15        2       17   
    29   Willie Hernandez         1984    140.1       80       68       29        0       32   
    30   Bill Campbell            1977    140         69       60       29        0       31   
    T31  Pedro Borbon             1974    139         73       44        5        0       14   
    T31  Dan Quisenberry          1983    139         69       62       35        0       45   
    33   Bob Miller               1964    138         74       39        8        2        9   
    34   Aurelio Lopez            1984    137.2       71       41       13        0       14   
    T35  Sparky Lyle              1977    137         72       60       27        0       26   
    T35  Tom Hume                 1980    137         78       62       17        0       25   
    37   Dan Quisenberry          1982    136.2       72       68       23        0       35   
    38   Doug Corbett             1980    136.1       73       63       37        0       23   
    T39  Ken Sanders              1971    136         83       77       25        0       31   
    T39  Ted Abernathy            1965    136         84       62       17        0       31   
    T41  Joe Page                 1949    135         60       48       23        0       27   
    T41  Ted Abernathy            1968    135         78       53       15        0       13   
    T41  Kent Tekulve             1978    135         91       65       22        0       31   
    T41  Mudcat Grant             1970    135         80       54       25        0       24   
    T45  Phil Regan               1968    134.2       73       62       17        0       25   
    T45  Rollie Fingers           1976    134.2       70       62       15        0       20   
    T47  Goose Gossage            1978    134.1       63       55       25        0       27   
    T47  Terry Forster            1974    134.1       59       49        2        1       24   
    T47  Kent Tekulve             1979    134.1       94       67       17        0       31   
    T50  John Montague            1979    134         55       25      -18        1        7   
    T50  Bill Henry               1959    134         65       35       18        0       12   
    T50  Dick Selma               1970    134         73       47       17        0       22   
    53   Dan Spillner             1982    133.2       65       54       24        0       21   
    T54  Mace Brown               1938    133         51       32       -1        2        5   
    T54  Goose Gossage            1977    133         72       55       35        0       26   
    56   Rollie Fingers           1977    132.1       78       69        7        0       35   
    T57  Dick Radatz              1963    132         66       58       28        0       25   
    T57  Dan McGinn               1969    132         74       25       -3        1        6   
    T59  Bob Lee                  1965    131         69       50       20        0       23   
    T59  Sid Monge                1979    131         76       53       31        0       19   
    T59  Ted Wilks                1948    131         57       28       19        2       13   
    T59  Hoyt Wilhelm             1964    131         73       55       19        0       27   
    T59  Ron Davis                1980    131         53       29       15        0        7   
    64   Eddie Fisher             1970    130.1       67       36        4        2        8   
    T65  Dave Heaverlo            1978    130         69       40        8        0       10   
    T65  Joe Berry                1945    130         52       40       13        0        5   
    67   Sammy Stewart            1985    129.2       56       36        7        1        9   
    T68  Dan Quisenberry          1984    129.1       72       67       19        0       44   
    T68  Enrique Romo             1979    129.1       84       25       13        0        5   
    T70  Ron Perranoski           1963    129         69       47       19        0       21   
    T70  Dan Quisenberry          1985    129         84       76       26        0       37   
    T70  Lindy McDaniel           1965    129         71       26       16        0        2   
    73   Kent Tekulve             1982    128.2       85       64       17        0       20   
    74   Dan Quisenberry          1980    128.1       75       68       12        0       33   
    T75  John Wyatt               1964    128         81       57        5        0       20   
    T75  Roger McDowell           1986    128         75       52        6        0       22   
    T77  Duane Ward               1990    127.2       73       39        7        0       11   
    T77  Rick Camp                1985    127.2       66       23        0        2        3   
    T77  Bill Caudill             1980    127.2       72       27       25        2        1   
    T77  Mark Eichhorn            1987    127.2       89       27       18        0        4   
    T81  Charlie Hough            1977    127.1       70       53        7        1       22   
    T81  Roger McDowell           1985    127.1       62       36        8        2       17   
    T83  Aurelio Lopez            1979    127         61       49       23        0       21   
    T83  Ellis Kinder             1951    127         63       41       27        2       14   
    T83  Pedro Borbon             1977    127         73       54       10        0       18   
    T83  Don Elston               1960    127         60       33        6        0       11   
    T87  Rollie Fingers           1973    126.2       62       49       19        2       22   
    T87  Rollie Fingers           1975    126.2       75       59        7        0       24   
    T89  Larry Bearnarth          1963    126         58       34       -1        2        4   
    T89  Pete Mikkelsen           1966    126         71       33        7        0       14   
    T89  Jim Acker                1989    126         73       26       16        0        2   
    T92  Dick Tidrow              1979    125.1       77       37        8        0        6   
    T92  John Hiller              1973    125.1       65       60       34        0       38   
    T94  Pedro Borbon             1975    125         67       25       11        0        5   
    T94  Eddie Fisher             1964    125         59       30        4        2        9   
    T94  Ron Perranoski           1964    125         72       52        1        0       14   
    T94  Mark Williamson          1987    125         61       36        5        2        3   
    T94  Dick Radatz              1962    125         62       53       26        0       24   
    T94  Bob Locker               1967    125         77       47       12        0       20   
    100  Jeff Robinson            1988    124.2       75       35        5        0        9   
    101  Greg Minton              1984    124.1       74       43       -3        1       19   
    T102 Aurelio Lopez            1980    124         67       59        8        1       21   
    T102 Ron Herbel               1970    124         76       38       -9        1       10   
    T102 Dick Radatz              1965    124         63       56       -1        0       22   
    T102 Bill Gogolewski          1973    124         49       22       -6        1        6   
    106  Enrique Romo             1980    123.2       74       38        6        0       11   
    T107 Jeff Robinson            1987    123.1       81       40       15        0       14   
    T107 Lance McCullers          1987    123.1       78       41        3        0       16   
    T109 Greg Minton              1982    123         78       66       21        0       30   
    T109 Butch Metzger            1976    123         77       62        2        0       16   
    T109 Jim Bouton               1969    123         73       25       -3        2        2   
    T109 Tom Murphy               1974    123         70       66       25        0       20   
    T109 Dan Spillner             1977    123         76       30       -3        0        6   
    114  Bruce Sutter             1984    122.2       71       63       27        0       45   
    115  Bill Campbell            1983    122.1       82       46      -11        0        8   
    T116 Stu Miller               1961    122         63       46       17        0       17   
    T116 Paul Lindblad            1975    122         68       20       10        0        7   
    T116 Pedro Borbon             1972    122         62       26        0        2       11   
    T116 Danny Darwin             1989    122         68       26       17        0        7   
    T116 Wilbur Wood              1970    122         77       62       17        0       21   
    T116 Frank Smith              1952    122         53       37        0        2        7   
    T116 Jim Todd                 1975    122         58       31       16        0       12   
    T116 Don Robinson             1984    122         51       28        4        1       10   
    T116 Lindy McDaniel           1966    122         64       32       11        0        6   
    T116 Minnie Rojas             1967    122         72       53        8        0       27   
    126  Bob Lacey                1977    121.2       64       29       12        0        7   
    T127 Pedro Borbon             1976    121         69       26        3        1        8   
    T127 Pedro Borbon             1973    121         80       36       16        0       14   
    T127 John Hiller              1976    121         56       46       18        1       13   
    T130 Bill Campbell            1974    120.1       63       55       14        0       19   
    T130 Tim Burke                1985    120.1       78       31       13        0        8   
    T130 Andy McGaffigan          1987    120.1       69       30       26        0       12   
    T133 Ron Perranoski           1969    120         75       52       21        0       31   
    T133 Joe Heving               1944    120         63       38       21        1       10   
    T133 Wilbur Wood              1969    120         76       50       13        0       15

  12. #26
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: Firemen vs. Closers

    It's certainly been done, and no doubt could be again, but it's not as easy as it sounds. Any pitcher could fulfill the first two parts of that job description -- "appear frequently" and "throw multiple innings per appearance" -- for a little while. It's the third part -- "and maintain effectiveness" -- that's the catch.

    We ask starters to throw a lot of innings, but they get a lot of rest days. Short relief doesn't get the rest (and if they have to get up and get ready, it's about the same on them cumulative-fatigue-wise whether they go in the game or not) but they don't throw many innings. Ask a guy to throw a big innings load but without the rest, he'd better be a rubber-armed freak, or we'd better be willing to sacrifice the guy to the process of finding out if he is.
    Not all who wander are lost

  13. #27
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    Re: Firemen vs. Closers

    Theoretically, Chapman's outings could be planned. He pitches the seventh, eighth, and ninth innings (depending on pitch counts) every third or fourth day, depending on starter effectiveness. Obviously, if Wood, for example, was throwing a three-hit shutout, he'd stay in, but, for the most part, three innings would be left for relievers.

    That would keep him from overextending his arm or appearing too frequently (as he'd pretty much be on a strict regimen of appearance, two/ three days' rest, then work again throughout the season, when off-days and starting pitchers are added).

    What's the harm in that?
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  14. #28
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: Firemen vs. Closers

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Theoretically, Chapman's outings could be planned. He pitches the seventh, eighth, and ninth innings (depending on pitch counts) every third or fourth day, depending on starter effectiveness. Obviously, if Wood, for example, was throwing a three-hit shutout, he'd stay in, but, for the most part, three innings would be left for relievers.

    That would keep him from overextending his arm or appearing too frequently (as he'd pretty much be on a strict regimen of appearance, two/ three days' rest, then work again throughout the season, when off-days and starting pitchers are added).

    What's the harm in that?
    I can think of a few practical considerations:

    * It's the National League. If he's supposed to come into the game in the seventh and finish it, he'd better learn to hit for himself.

    * If he does pitch the three innings and isn't available for a few days after that, it puts strain on the rest of the bullpen, as it's going to increase the frequency with which the rest of them have to go back-to-back days.

    * By putting him on a planned schedule that discounts the leverage of the game situation that day, the Reds wouldn't be maximizing his impact in the bullpen while simultaneously taking a sub-optimal approach to preparing him for the rotation.

    I don't know. I think the Reds are better off pursuing one objective at a time, but Chapman's a guy where theory and practice don't always mesh, so maybe what you're describing is exactly what he needs.
    Not all who wander are lost

  15. #29
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Firemen vs. Closers

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNext44 View Post
    Borbon averaged over 70 appearances a year and over 125 innings pitched a year over a six year period from 1972-77.
    Borbon usually lead the league in opposing players bitten as well.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  16. #30
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Firemen vs. Closers

    Borbon = Scary Dude
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden


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