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Thread: Dusty Debate: Harang and the infamous 4 inning outing revisited

  1. #1
    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Dusty Debate: Harang and the infamous 4 inning outing revisited

    For the most part, Dusty has been 'ok'. But, I don't think that his defenders can dispute that this is a black mark against his record as Reds manager. Although, I bet a few might try.
    ... The pitch total: 239 in eight days (including 2 starts and his relief outing). Harang was 2-6 with a 3.50 ERA before the relief appearance. He was 4-11 with a 5.88 ERA after that game.

    ...

    “What it did,” said Harang, “is fatigue me beyond the point of recovery. I started to change my arm angle to compensate for the fatigue and that’s when my forearm started to bother me.”


    http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2...medium=twitter
    I've had people around here defend Dusty and his handling of the Reds young pitchers to me. But, I think we've been lucky that, so far, Dusty hasn't made a similar mistake with Cueto, Bailey, Wood, Chapman, etc.

    Hopefully, Harang can get his mechanics back in sync and rebound to be closer to the pitcher he was, and should still be, as a Red.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

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    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty Debate: Harang and the infamous 4 inning outing revisited

    I'm not trying to sound callous, but it seems to me as if Harang is just making excuses. He never brought this up as being a factor in his time in Cincinnati, now the first minute he's out of town, he's pointing back to "the game."

    Maybe it did have a affect him for the rest of that season, but for so many seasons going forward? I just don't see it.

    Dusty has done fine in his tenure as the Reds manager, and he has an NL Central crown to boot. I've had no problem with his handling of the pitchers.

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    Re: Dusty Debate: Harang and the infamous 4 inning outing revisited

    I don't think he is making excuses at all. It was evident to many of us that this is precisely what happened to Aaron Harang. We got shouted down, for the most part. Harang didn't bring it up, so it kind of went away. The Reds probably could not afford him now with the career path he was on, but how much better would the Reds' chances have been with a productive Harang in the playoffs last year? I am glad he is speaking out about it now. Dusty has redeemed himself in many ways, but the way he used Harang in that game, and maybe even more agregiously the start he made three days later, was nothing less than a crime.

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    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty Debate: Harang and the infamous 4 inning outing revisited

    I wish Harang well, althought the odds are probably against him ever returning to the effectiveness he previously had. Yes, there is no excuse for Dusty Baker's infamous handling of him, but that was just Dusty being Dusty.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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    Mr.Redlegs is my homeboy Eric_the_Red's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty Debate: Harang and the infamous 4 inning outing revisited

    If Harang was too tired to pitch with good mechanics, he should have said so. The Reds could have rested/DL'd him for a bit to recuperate. Then he would had no excuse for his sub-par performance the last few years.

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    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty Debate: Harang and the infamous 4 inning outing revisited

    Throwing a baseball is an unnatural act, attrition is the final destination for all pitchers, especially big, un-athletic guys who live on their form being perfect.

    If it wasn't the 4 innings, it would have been something else.

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    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty Debate: Harang and the infamous 4 inning outing revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    Maybe it did have a affect him for the rest of that season, but for so many seasons going forward? I just don't see it.
    There was another quote from Harang in the article that basically left the impression, at least with me, that his mechanics got so screwed up in that relief outing that he wasn't able to fix his mechanics when he was with the Reds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_the_Red View Post
    If Harang was too tired to pitch with good mechanics, he should have said so. The Reds could have rested/DL'd him for a bit to recuperate. Then he would had no excuse for his sub-par performance the last few years.
    I thought someone would say something like that. I'm all for personal responsibility. But, there are pitchers that, if it was up to them, would be out there until their arm fell off it. The difference here is that Dusty not only let it happen but he essentially, unknowingly, made it happen. Part of his job is deciding who is and isn't in the game. And, on that day, he made a costly mistake.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

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    Re: Dusty Debate: Harang and the infamous 4 inning outing revisited

    It was terrible handling of the staff -- and many of us said so at the time -- regardless of how the pitchers fared. There was no excuse for how Baker/Pole lined up the guys in that extra inning game in SD and afterward. I've objected a lot to the handling of Cordero, too. Will be interesting to see what happens with Chapman at the back of ballgames (cringe).

    Overall, I like Baker. Real strengths and, I would say, real weaknesses.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

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    Tired of talk. Win! Joseph's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty Debate: Harang and the infamous 4 inning outing revisited

    I don't doubt it played into things, but Harang is 6'-7"+/- and he was a horse of a man. His body is his own worst enemy.

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    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty Debate: Harang and the infamous 4 inning outing revisited

    I found no fault at the time and still find no fault now for the way Dusty managed the game against SD. You manage the game to win and Harang's entrance into the game was a direct result of that. What I do find some fault in is how they stacked the rotation after that game. But then again I would imagine Dusty, Pole, and Harang made that decision. Harang signed off on the next start and the rest is infamous history.

    The issue I have with the situation is even if he did screw up his arm he had two off seasons to get rested and never needed surgery (for the arm). Harang was a loyal solider and a good citizen during his time in Cincy. I think his demise is a lot more than just 4 ill fated innings pitched 3 years ago.

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    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty Debate: Harang and the infamous 4 inning outing revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Throwing a baseball is an unnatural act, attrition is the final destination for all pitchers, especially big, un-athletic guys who live on their form being perfect.

    If it wasn't the 4 innings, it would have been something else.


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    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty Debate: Harang and the infamous 4 inning outing revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Throwing a baseball is an unnatural act, attrition is the final destination for all pitchers, especially big, un-athletic guys who live on their form being perfect.

    If it wasn't the 4 innings, it would have been something else.
    So, because you expect he wouldn't last as long as other pitchers is reason enough to shrug off Harang falling apart at the age of 30? Umm ok, if you say so.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

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    Re: Dusty Debate: Harang and the infamous 4 inning outing revisited

    Harang dominated in that relief appearance, how were his mechanics screwed up then? And as someone else stated if he was fatigued beyond recovery he should have said so and spent a stint on the DL. I am curious how many pitches he would throw in his normal bullpen session between starts?

    Either way I hope Harang is great in San Diego, but what is done is done and I am ready to move past him. And I do not fault Baker for it, In Dusty I Trusty.
    "Today was the byproduct of us thinking we can come back from anything." - Joey Votto after blowing a 10-1 lead and holding on for the 12-11 win on 8/25/2010.

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty Debate: Harang and the infamous 4 inning outing revisited

    Anyone else see the irony here.... San Diego ruined his career and now San Diego may resurrect it..
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Socratic Gadfly TheNext44's Avatar
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    Re: Dusty Debate: Harang and the infamous 4 inning outing revisited

    I have no problem with how Dusty pitched Harang that day. Putting a starting pitcher into and extra inning game has been done countless times in baseball history without much fanfare, or ruining of a pitcher.

    However, the Reds made a terrible mistake in starting Harang just three days after that extra inning stint. If any damage was done to Harang's arm, it was then, in rushing him back to the rotation. That explains Harang's fatigue more than pitching in extra innings. Iirc, the main reason why he was asked to start just three days later was that Krivsky didn't have space on the roster to call anyone up.

    Also, the reason why Harang was available to pitch in relief was that he got blasted out of his previous start a few days earlier after just a few innings, which wasn't the first time that had happened in that young season. Harang wasn't exactly pitching great before that stint, so it's really hard to blame that incident completely for his decline.
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