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Thread: Ryan Widmer - 3rd time is a charm....

  1. #16
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    Re: Ryan Widmer - 3rd time is a charm....

    Sea Ray, you raise good questions, but it would appear as though you were asking for someone to prove he was innocent. Obviously, that's not necessary. As Roy said, 34 out 36 people found him guilty based on evidence presented in court, not evidence cherry picked by different news media outlets. And really they know more than any of us do.
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  3. #17
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    Re: 3rd time is a charm....

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    1. At my house my wife and I don't have a land line phone. Our cell phones are kept downstairs near the kitchen while our bedroom is upstairs. If I were to find my wife drowned in the bath tub it would be a while before I went down stairs to get the cell phone. I would be performing CPR on her and whatever I could before I would go down stairs to make the call.

    If she had been drowned by Widmer why was the bathroom dry? Why wasn't there water everywhere. Where was the struggle?

    3. It was juror misconduct. Whether or not you agree with it its the law. It appears if there are already allegations of juror misconduct in this latest trial.

    4. I listened to the 911 call and really didn't find anything that damning.
    1. Unlike you he did have a landline. And even if I only had one cell phone in my house and it was dead you better believe I find her like that and I instantly run to the neighbors house and have them call 911 or do it myself and run back. Because even though I am CPR and AED certified I do not own adrenaline shots nor can I perform CPR for an hour or more with out getting tired and faulty. And on top of all that I don't have an AED machine. So taking the time to make that call right away will more likely save her than doing CPR myself knowing no one is on their way. 5 more minutes without oxygen wouldnt do more damage if she had already been out for at least 15 mins.

    2. I am sure he has towels.

    3. There is always going to be rumors of juror misconduct with a case like this especially as ruthless as the Widmer family seems to be.

    4. He said in the call he hadn't moved her yet in court he said he had already been doing CPR trying to save her when they found out how long she had been estimated to be in the tub. So his story changed right away from what he said on the call.
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  4. #18
    Tired of talk. Win! Joseph's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Widmer - 3rd time is a charm....

    Having a built in law enforcement tie in in my own family, i typically side with the prosecution in most cases, in this one however I just can't be convinced he did it. I have believed at various times its possible and at other times its not likely, and as such I believe I could not find him guilty were I on a jury.

    For every bit of 'evidence' that says he did it, there is something that makes me think he didn't. This man appears to have been convicted on a 911 call and a dry bathroom. I'd hate it if anything like that happened to any one of us.

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    Re: Ryan Widmer - 3rd time is a charm....

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    Sea Ray, you raise good questions, but it would appear as though you were asking for someone to prove he was innocent. Obviously, that's not necessary. As Roy said, 34 out 36 people found him guilty based on evidence presented in court, not evidence cherry picked by different news media outlets. And really they know more than any of us do.
    What makes you say that? As always I take emotion out of it and I just look at the facts. The facts are he either killed her or she dropped dead. I don't see any reasonable reason for her to drop dead so he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Simple enough? Where does that give you the idea that I feel he has to prove his innocence?

  6. #20
    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Widmer - 3rd time is a charm....

    I think he did it.

    I would have a hard time sending someone away for life on a 911 call. I have had to call 911 probably 10 times in my life for car crashes I have witnessed, and medical emergencies. The scariest one of those was back in college. A friend of mine had just come back from a football game, fell over and went into a diabetic seizure, first time in his life. He locked up, bit his tongue, foamed blood from his mouth, and was stiff as a board. I couldn't tell them the address of the house I lived in. He was 21 and didn't know he was diabetic. Stuff happens.

    I have my doubts, but at the end of the day the jury is probably right.
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  7. #21
    Making sense of it all Matt700wlw's Avatar
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    Re: Ryan Widmer - 3rd time is a charm....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    What makes you say that? As always I take emotion out of it and I just look at the facts. The facts are he either killed her or she dropped dead. I don't see any reasonable reason for her to drop dead so he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Simple enough? Where does that give you the idea that I feel he has to prove his innocence?
    He doesn't have to prove his innocence, but he had 3 opportunities to get on the stand and defend it. Everyone would understand if he was not thinking straight...

    YouTube - Widmer's 911 Call, edited

    How does he know she fell asleep in the bathtub if he was downstairs? You walk upstairs and your wife is face down in the bathtub....I'm scattering anything and everything to get her OUT of the bathtub, even if unplugging the drain is part of it.

  8. #22
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    Re: Ryan Widmer - 3rd time is a charm....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    The facts are he either killed her or she dropped dead. I don't see any reasonable reason for her to drop dead so he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
    My friend's wife died in her sleep in her late 20's, someone who was by all accounts a very healthy young lady. I'm not saying it's a common thing, but things like this do happen.

  9. #23
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    Re: 3rd time is a charm....

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuban_Missile View Post
    3. There is always going to be rumors of juror misconduct with a case like this especially as ruthless as the Widmer family seems to be.
    No matter what you think of him I don't think it should reflect anything on the family.
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  10. #24
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    Re: Ryan Widmer - 3rd time is a charm....

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    My friend's wife died in her sleep in her late 20's, someone who was by all accounts a very healthy young lady. I'm not saying it's a common thing, but things like this do happen.
    At that age I'm sure they did an autopsy. What was her cause of death?

  11. #25
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    Re: Ryan Widmer - 3rd time is a charm....

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
    Having a built in law enforcement tie in in my own family, i typically side with the prosecution in most cases, in this one however I just can't be convinced he did it. I have believed at various times its possible and at other times its not likely, and as such I believe I could not find him guilty were I on a jury.

    For every bit of 'evidence' that says he did it, there is something that makes me think he didn't. This man appears to have been convicted on a 911 call and a dry bathroom. I'd hate it if anything like that happened to any one of us.
    Were I the prosecuting attorney in this case I'd ask the following question and I'd like to hear your response:

    Here we have a 24 year old with no history of seizures, no drugs in her system and the autopsy showed no heart issues. We know her cause of death is drowning and that merely falling asleep in the tub would not have caused her to drown. Does the possibility that she drowned to her death due to her first ever seizure constitute a reasonable doubt in your mind?

  12. #26
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    Re: Ryan Widmer - 3rd time is a charm....

    I'm just wondering why he let the tub drain instead of dragging her out of it.

    That, right there, doesn't make much sense to me.

  13. #27
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    Re: Ryan Widmer - 3rd time is a charm....

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker View Post
    Just viewing it from afar, there seemed to be ample room for reasonable doubt. At least to my untrained eye.

    But there have been 3 trials now and 34 of the 36 jurors have found him guilty. All I can think is that I wasn't in the courtroom and I didn't hear and see all of the evidence so those people must be seeing or hearing something I didn't from my tv/radio/internet news perch.

    The other thing I've learned in life is that some people lie and will continue to lie in spite of everything. In this case, I just don't know who.
    This case never passed the sniff test for me -- the minute they started producing video re-enactments of the crime to show jurors "How it could've happened" I knew the prosecution was grasping at straws. The police work in this case was total crap, and I think the "star" witness from this third trial is of dubious credibility at best.

    Really, where Widmer hung himself was not testifying. Jurors are instructed that they can't hold a defendant's silence against him, but in this case, I absolutely think his failure to rebut the new confession weighed heavily in the minds of the jurors. It's a human thing to expect "If someone accused me of murder, I'd absolutely get on the witness stand and tell my side of the story." You can instruct jurors on the issue endlessly, but the nagging sense of "Yeah but..." that gets left in their mind by something like this is often the difference between holding on to a "Not Guilty" during deliberations and being convinced by fellow jurors to sign a "Guilty" verdict form.

    I guess my real bottom line is this -- I think he did it, I don't think they had nearly enough quality evidence to say he did it, and (most of all) I think I'm glad that I wasn't the one that had to prosecute this.
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    Re: Ryan Widmer - 3rd time is a charm....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Were I the prosecuting attorney in this case I'd ask the following question and I'd like to hear your response:

    Here we have a 24 year old with no history of seizures, no drugs in her system and the autopsy showed no heart issues. We know her cause of death is drowning and that merely falling asleep in the tub would not have caused her to drown. Does the possibility that she drowned to her death due to her first ever seizure constitute a reasonable doubt in your mind?
    There is a first time for everything. Why does there need to be a documented history of seizures before a person can have one that could potentially endanger themselves?

    Why couldn't someone fall asleep in the tub and drown? Why couldn't she have some kind of rare blood disorder that the autopsy didn't reveal? Just because she was a healthy 24 year old doesn't mean that could have some kind of defect that could cause the drowning?

  15. #29
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    Re: Ryan Widmer - 3rd time is a charm....

    Just for a bit of reference, I know somebody with epilepsy, and she didn't show a single warning sign of it until she was 17 years old - when she had a seizure in her bathroom. Weird things can happen.

    But, I don't know much about this case so I won't prognosticate on whether I think the guy did or didn't do it. Just wanted to add my .02 on the seizure possibility.
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  16. #30
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    Re: Ryan Widmer - 3rd time is a charm....

    Quote Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
    This case never passed the sniff test for me -- the minute they started producing video re-enactments of the crime to show jurors "How it could've happened" I knew the prosecution was grasping at straws. The police work in this case was total crap, and I think the "star" witness from this third trial is of dubious credibility at best.

    Really, where Widmer hung himself was not testifying. Jurors are instructed that they can't hold a defendant's silence against him, but in this case, I absolutely think his failure to rebut the new confession weighed heavily in the minds of the jurors. It's a human thing to expect "If someone accused me of murder, I'd absolutely get on the witness stand and tell my side of the story." You can instruct jurors on the issue endlessly, but the nagging sense of "Yeah but..." that gets left in their mind by something like this is often the difference between holding on to a "Not Guilty" during deliberations and being convinced by fellow jurors to sign a "Guilty" verdict form.

    I guess my real bottom line is this -- I think he did it, I don't think they had nearly enough quality evidence to say he did it, and (most of all) I think I'm glad that I wasn't the one that had to prosecute this.
    Good post.

    I feel more or less the same way.

    I had met the Widmers once through mutual friends and I know quite a few people who knew them well. Almost all of them are quite surprised by every aspect of this, from her death to his conviction and I think they feel much the same way you (and I) do in the bolded above.

    My view of this case is clouded by previous interactions I've had with Dr. Uptegrove. I have a hard time with anything he says, under oath or not.

    And you're right on Widmer not taking the stand. I know "the book" says not to do it, but I think this may have been the time to throw the book out the window. As Roy said, he'd been convicted once and come within an eyelash a second time. Something had to give.

    Of course, the prosecution changed tack a little with the Crew woman (nightmare) and the lesser included manslaughter charge. Their tactics showed they felt they were the ones with more to lose, when in my mind, it should have been the other way around.
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