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Thread: RZ Greatest OF Tournament - Rd 2

  1. #16
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: RZ Greatest OF Tournament - Rd 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxblood View Post
    This round should be a lot more interesting, plenty of good matchups.

    Round 2

    Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr

    Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays

    Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron

    Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente

    Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez

    Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams

    Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds

    Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb
    Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Henderson, Dimaggio, Williams, Bonds, Cobb.

    Fun thread. Sorry I missed round 1.
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  3. #17
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    Re: RZ Greatest OF Tournament - Rd 2

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    For me, part of it is about intangible things rather than actual stats. Clemente played in an era that was dominated by pitchers. To me, that has to account for something. Who was the best pitcher of the 80's? Jack Morris or Ryan? Clemente just faced so many more quality pitchers such as Gibson, Drysdale, and Koufax.

    He had a higher career BA, OPS, SLG, and OPS+ than Henderson.

    I also think that people are focusing too much on offense in this tournament. Clemente was clearly a superior defensive outfielder than Henderson, winning 12 Gold Gloves in his 18 year career.

    I also think the Bill James Hall of Fame Monitor carries some weight to it and is a good judge of who is a hall of famer or not. Clemente has 230 points compared to Henderson 178. The Hall of Fame Monitor doesn't even take into account defense.

    I personally like Henderson and I love his Ricky is Ricky mentality. I loved the fact that he had swagger on the base paths and at the plate. I just feel that if we are going with the overall package, its Clemente.
    Still have to disagree with you. Clemente's career percent stats are aided by the fact that he, tragically, never experienced a major decline phase. Take Rickey's age 36-44 seasons out of the mix and I bet the numbers are more similar in SLG and OPS.
    Let's compare their WARs. Clemente's 5 best: 8.4, 7.4, 7.3, 7.1 and 7.1. Rickey's 5 best: 10.0, 10.0, 8.6, 7.4, and 7.4. So, Rickey's 3rd best season is better than Clemente's 1st and Rickey's 5th best season is as good or better than all but Clemente's 1st. Rickey's 1st and 2nd best seasons were worth a combined 4.2 wins more than Clemente's.
    I know the SB is overrated, but not when a guy steals 1406 bases at over an 80% clip. As Bill James wrote, "If you cut Rickey in half, you'd have 2 HOFers."
    Last edited by BoxingRed; 02-26-2011 at 08:58 AM.

  4. #18
    Mr.Redlegs is my homeboy Eric_the_Red's Avatar
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    Re: RZ Greatest OF Tournament - Rd 2

    Round 2

    Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr

    Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays

    Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron

    Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente

    Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez

    Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams
    I think it is easy to look at their career numbers and forget what Williams' stats could have been if it weren't for his service to our country.

    Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds
    Even before the juice, Bonds was a multiple MVP winner.

    Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb

  5. #19
    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: RZ Greatest OF Tournament - Rd 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxblood View Post
    This round should be a lot more interesting, plenty of good matchups.

    Round 2

    Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr

    His stats speak for themselves and that includes his pitching stats.

    Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays

    Tough one but due to Willie not suffering from injuries, he lived a cleaner life than Mantle which led to a longer career gives him the edge here.

    Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron

    HR's and RBI career totals say it all.

    Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente

    Edge to Clemente defensively but Rickey was better at the rest.

    Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez

    Defense speaks here.

    Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams

    Tough one but Williams

    Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds

    Pre Juice Barry is still better than Mel

    Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb

    Speaker was amazing especially with the glove but he was no Cobb on the field.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

  6. #20
    Playoffs Cyclone792's Avatar
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    Re: RZ Greatest OF Tournament - Rd 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxblood View Post
    This round should be a lot more interesting, plenty of good matchups.

    Round 2

    Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr

    Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays

    Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron

    Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente

    Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez

    Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams

    Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds

    Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb
    Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Henderson, DiMaggio, Williams, Bonds, Cobb

    The only close one is Mays/Mantle. Mantle was the greater peak player, but Mays' career value edge trumps Mantle's peak value edge. That much being said, it's quite close overall.

    It's hard to fathom this about a Yankee legend, but IMO, Mantle is underrated by most folks. DiMaggio, OTOH, is vastly overrated (Mantle was the much superior ballplayer).
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  7. #21
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    Re: RZ Greatest OF Tournament - Rd 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post
    It's hard to fathom this about a Yankee legend, but IMO, Mantle is underrated by most folks. DiMaggio, OTOH, is vastly overrated (Mantle was the much superior ballplayer).
    I couldn't agree more. There seems to be lot of people who look at Mantle and wonder what might have been and frankly I don't understand it. I realize that injuries and alcoholism cut into his production, but for crying out loud he's 12th on the alltime WAR list with a career WAR just north of 120.

  8. #22
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    Re: RZ Greatest OF Tournament - Rd 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone792 View Post
    Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Henderson, DiMaggio, Williams, Bonds, Cobb

    The only close one is Mays/Mantle. Mantle was the greater peak player, but Mays' career value edge trumps Mantle's peak value edge. That much being said, it's quite close overall.

    It's hard to fathom this about a Yankee legend, but IMO, Mantle is underrated by most folks. DiMaggio, OTOH, is vastly overrated (Mantle was the much superior ballplayer).
    Quote Originally Posted by nmculbreth View Post
    I couldn't agree more. There seems to be lot of people who look at Mantle and wonder what might have been and frankly I don't understand it. I realize that injuries and alcoholism cut into his production, but for crying out loud he's 12th on the alltime WAR list with a career WAR just north of 120.
    If Mantle was lined up vs anyone not named Mays or Ruth (maybe Williams/Aaron just because Aaron was good for so long vs Mantle's shorter shelflife.) that is left then I probably would have but when it comes to this competition to me it should come down to Mays/Ruth/Aaron (Bonds falls earlier because of the PED question). I just feel that Mays was that much better of a player for a longer time than Mantle was, maybe its all the oldtime highlights I see of Mays.
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  9. #23
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: RZ Greatest OF Tournament - Rd 2

    Still have to disagree with you. Clemente's career percent stats are aided by the fact that he, tragically, never experienced a major decline phase. Take Rickey's age 36-44 seasons out of the mix and I bet the numbers are more similar in SLG and OPS.
    Let's compare their WARs. Clemente's 5 best: 8.4, 7.4, 7.3, 7.1 and 7.1. Rickey's 5 best: 10.0, 10.0, 8.6, 7.4, and 7.4. So, Rickey's 3rd best season is better than Clemente's 1st and Rickey's 5th best season is as good or better than all but Clemente's 1st. Rickey's 1st and 2nd best seasons were worth a combined 4.2 wins more than Clemente's.
    I know the SB is overrated, but not when a guy steals 1406 bases at over an 80% clip. As Bill James wrote, "If you cut Rickey in half, you'd have 2 HOFers."

    I think WAR is an overused and somewhat flawed stat. I will never use it to compare two different players from two different era's. There are just too many factors involved, one of which is what would be an "average" player in the 1960's vs. the 1980's. The WAR stat only uses the current model of what an "average" player is. It doesn't account for what an average, replacement player is in the 1960's.

    I still think you have to look at each player in context to the era they played. As pointed out before, the 60's was a pitching dominant decade so obviously the offensive numbers wouldn't be as great as they were in the 1980's or even today for that matter.

    And as I pointed out, Clemente is easily in the top 5 defensive outfielders the game has ever seen. His dominance at defense along with Clemente's brilliance at the plate makes him a better outfielder in my mind than Ricky.

    On a side note, what impresses me from looking at WAR leaders all time, Albert Pujols is already ranked 47th all time in WAR at just age 31. Its going to be interesting to see where he ends up 8-10 years from now on this list.
    Last edited by MikeThierry; 02-27-2011 at 12:05 AM.
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    Re: RZ Greatest OF Tournament - Rd 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxblood View Post
    This round should be a lot more interesting, plenty of good matchups.

    Round 2

    Babe Ruth vs. Ken Griffey Jr

    Mickey Mantle vs. Willie Mays

    Frank Robinson vs. Hank Aaron

    Rickey Henderson vs. Roberto Clemente

    Joe DiMaggio vs. Manny Ramirez

    Stan Musial vs. Ted Williams

    Mel Ott vs. Barry Bonds

    Tris Speaker vs. Ty Cobb
    Ruth: greatest offensive player of all time
    Mays: greatest player of all time
    Aaron: have to take him over my personal all time favorite Red and player
    Clemente: very tough call, Henderson better in many ways, but for those of us who first saw baseball in the 50's Clemente is transcendent, have to see him throw from right field to believe it
    DiMaggio: agree that Mantle was better than DiMag but he was better than Manny
    Williams: second greatest offensive player ever
    Bonds: ?
    Cobb: have to go with that .367

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    Re: RZ Greatest OF Tournament - Rd 2

    Very good stuff ITT, great banter.

    Results on Thursday and I'll post round 3 this Friday.

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    Re: RZ Greatest OF Tournament - Rd 2

    Great Round...Nice job fellas

    Round 2 results

    Babe Ruth def Ken Griffey Jr 14-1

    Willie Mays def Mickey Mantle 14-1

    Hank Aaron def Frank Robinson 13-2

    Rickey Henderson def Roberto Clemente 8-7

    Joe DiMaggio def Manny Ramirez 15-0

    Ted Williams def Stan Musial 12-3

    Barry Bonds def Mel Ott 12-3

    Ty Cobb def Tris Speaker 15-0

    Round 3 up Friday


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