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Thread: Political Discussions

  1. #106
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Political Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    Why is it inherently Democrat or Republican (or Libertarian or whatever)?

    Isn't it about (the role of government) whether it's beneficial to the public or not? What could possibly twist that into a political direction? Again, one must consciously force a subject into a political one for it to be political, whether intentional, or unintentional (they just don't know how to discuss something without making it political and lack a lot of debating skills).
    The singular most defining element of the difference between Liberal, Conservative and Libertarian political philosophies is the role of government in individual lives. Conservatives want less, Liberals want more, and Libertarian want none.

    A debate about if and how the local government should invest in public transportation has been probably the most political issue in the history of civilization, going all the way back to the Greeks and Romans.

    That said, I think the Streetcar thread is being kept open, because so far it has been a very civil discussion, just like the economy thread, which is just as political. Not to speak for the mods, but I have a feeling that either thread will be shut down the moment it ceases to be civil.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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  3. #107
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Political Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    Why is it inherently Democrat or Republican (or Libertarian or whatever)?

    Isn't it about (the role of government) whether it's beneficial to the public or not? What could possibly twist that into a political direction? Again, one must consciously force a subject into a political one for it to be political, whether intentional, or unintentional (they just don't know how to discuss something without making it political and lack a lot of debating skills).
    I think, after debating whether or not it is beneficial to the public, the second question is how its funded. And political ideologies come into play there. So I don't think its a twisting or forcing thing. I think it natually happens.

    Having said all that, I think its possible to have polite yet meaningful dialogues about these things. In a perfect world we could do that. I do it fairly regularly.

    But all it takes is for one person to pee in the pool and then all heck breaks loose. And that happens more often than not. Unfortunately. The RZ population follows a bell-shaped curve and we have our outliers.

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  4. #108
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    Re: Political Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    Isn't it about (the role of government) whether it's beneficial to the public or not? What could possibly twist that into a political direction?
    Hah?
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

  5. #109
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    Re: Political Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    A debate about if and how the local government should invest in public transportation has been probably the most political issue in the history of civilization, going all the way back to the Greeks and Romans.
    Yes.

    The singular most defining element of the difference between Liberal, Conservative and Libertarian political philosophies is the role of government in individual lives. Conservatives want less, Liberals want more, and Libertarian want none.
    No.
    The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

  6. #110
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    Re: Political Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    Top6, you would turn "talking about the weather" into a political topic.

    You're just not old enough to understand what constitutes a political topic. Leave it at that.
    I might have felt compelled to spend time responding to this, so I was relieved to see that later in the thread you demonstrated that you in fact have no clue what a political topic is.

  7. #111
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    Re: Political Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post

    Originally Posted by 757690: The singular most defining element of the difference between Liberal, Conservative and Libertarian political philosophies is the role of government in individual lives. Conservatives want less, Liberals want more, and Libertarian want none.
    No.
    I'm just quoting what I was taught the first day of my PoliSci 101 class in college. That was 27 years ago, however.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  8. #112
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    Re: Political Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker View Post
    I think, after debating whether or not it is beneficial to the public, the second question is how its funded. And political ideologies come into play there. So I don't think its a twisting or forcing thing. I think it natually happens.

    Having said all that, I think its possible to have polite yet meaningful dialogues about these things. In a perfect world we could do that. I do it fairly regularly.

    But all it takes is for one person to pee in the pool and then all heck breaks loose. And that happens more often than not. Unfortunately. The RZ population follows a bell-shaped curve and we have our outliers.
    But from what I gather the rule we are discussing is not the civility rule, but the rule against political discussions. Of course we should all be civil (but see-- my last post). The issue is that people seem to start threads that are plainly, obviously (in my opinion) advancing a political argument-- for example, saying "the streetcar was a bad idea." For some reason, it seems to be the view of some that the thread doesn't become political until someone disagrees. And my point has always been that this is just very frustrating for someone who disagrees with the opinion being advanced, because he or she feels like they cannot respond.

    FWIW, I would echo a poster from much earlier who stated that part of the problem here is that Redszone is, in a sense, a victim of its own success and the fine work of its moderators. The discussions here are so good, and the board so well run, that people naturally want to discuss political topics. So I do see why people continually push and sometimes cross the line. It just seems that some of us disagree about who is crossing the line.

    So unless anyone else is going to directly suggest I am too dumb or young to understand what politics is, I'll try to stop being too involved in this argument. Boss et al. have done a great job running this board for years. Not only is it their right to do so, but most the decisions they've made have proven correct over the years.

  9. #113
    We Need Our Myths reds1869's Avatar
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    Re: Political Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker View Post
    Having said all that, I think its possible to have polite yet meaningful dialogues about these things. In a perfect world we could do that. I do it fairly regularly.
    Indeed. I lean pretty hard to one side of the spectrum, and it is definitely not the dominant side here in The Queen City. On top of that I am an active member of a minor party that has broken with the rest of "my side" on the streetcar issue. Despite these facts I have meaningful, productive political discussions with my friends who hold differing viewpoints all the time.

    I enjoy political debate in person but find it tends to infuriate me on the internet. The veil of anonymity makes people very comfortable with spewing acid they would never dream of when looking their fellow human in the eye. I like RZ's general prohibition on blatantly political threads. I think topics like the streetcar can stay out of purely political turf but it is difficult. I've posted in that particular thread and tried to avoid any particular political statement. So far discussion has been civil but as you said it only takes one person to ruin it for everyone!

  10. #114
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    Re: Political Discussions

    At least for the time being, until if and when we decide on the best way to address this issue from a moderation standpoint, that's an accurate statement, as far as I'm concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    That said, I think the Streetcar thread is being kept open, because so far it has been a very civil discussion, just like the economy thread, which is just as political. Not to speak for the mods, but I have a feeling that either thread will be shut down the moment it ceases to be civil.

  11. #115
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Political Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by Boss-Hog View Post
    Based on years of past experience, moderation in those threads is absolutely necessary if you have any intention of maintaining a civil board with the number of posters we had participating in those threads here. The continued problems we've had recently where a few people made an attempt to dance around these rules and still get into politics until furthers that point. If you want to be able to post just about anything you want without any regards to the site's rules, we've long endorsed that by providing a link to the Peanut Gallery.

    Again, I'm not sure why the concept of having to make an extra click so that you can go somewhere else to discuss politics until your heart is content is a big deal.
    I guess I don't understand why if technically, The Peanut Gallery "is a part of Redszone" there exists a need for it to be on a different website from Redszone. To add, if we have the Peanut Gallery as "a part of Redszone" and people from this site post there, where is the proof that having the political discussion at a different url prevents things from spilling over to the baseball discussion?
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  12. #116
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Political Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by Boss-Hog View Post
    It's a good idea, but I do want to point out one difference: most of the time, the inflammatory comments made in baseball threads were not politically-based comments, but insults, rudeness, etc. that stemmed from often heated disagreements with the same user(s) in the political threads.
    Where is the proof that the insults and rudeness were based on heated disagreements from the political threads? Does the same thing not happen just as easily in threads (damn near all of them anymore) where the discussion turns to old school vs. new school stats?
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  13. #117
    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
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    Re: Political Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    The singular most defining element of the difference between Liberal, Conservative and Libertarian political philosophies is the role of government in individual lives. Conservatives want less, Liberals want more, and Libertarian want none.
    Not correct. I took Pol Sci 101 also.

  14. #118
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    Re: Political Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    I guess I don't understand why if technically, The Peanut Gallery "is a part of Redszone" there exists a need for it to be on a different website from Redszone. To add, if we have the Peanut Gallery as "a part of Redszone" and people from this site post there, where is the proof that having the political discussion at a different url prevents things from spilling over to the baseball discussion?
    It's not part of RZ, it's a private site run by Ochre and offered up to RZ as a place to also chat.

  15. #119
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Political Discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    It's not part of RZ, it's a private site run by Ochre and offered up to RZ as a place to also chat.
    Yes, but it is always referred to as "part of Redszone" and is even linked on the forums page.
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  16. #120
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    Re: Political Discussions

    Like most political issues, I think there is a solution that exists where political discussion can be allowed with little moderation and have little negative effect and everyone can benefit, however, I believe it will take a lot of work, abstract thought/planning, and also a bit of agreement & faith from a large group of people with vastly different personalities, ideas and investment about the issue. So, with that said, I don't think this particular makeup of people who are both in charge & volunteering input can achieve the solution. Even if we try, eventually, we'll reach an intellectual wall where we discover some folks, who previously offered insightful reasons why political discussion is not ideal, reveal that they simply want political discussion banned no matter if there is a solution.

    That is a huge obstacle when you are dealing with finding solutions. If you find a solution that works for everyone, that means that there will inevitably be a group of people who were "wrong" about there being no solution. And when people feel like they're being labeled as "wrong", even if it's for the greater good of the main resolution, a lot of diplomacy and civility and logic can quickly dissipate, and it can turn into a very emotional and illogical argument that sabotages the goodwill and good work that has been built. Then everyone gets split into two camps- angry/emotional and tired/frustrated, and instead of the problems being blamed on angry people who want to be right, it gets labeled as "THIS is why politics ruin everything."


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