So when is Bruce going to start hitting?

[Raisor]

Because Bruce IS what the team needs him to be.

[traderumor]

Because Bruce IS what the team needs him to be.

They have an empty slot. Votto, empty slot, Bruce, and an assorted collection of 6-7 hole hitters to finish things out. This offense is the team's weakness, just a collection of misfit toys.

[dougdirt]

I am still disappointed that the Votto/Bruce back-to-back in the lineup only lasted a week or so. I would really like to see them get back to that order, even if it is Votto and Bruce hitting 2nd and 3rd. Someone should really talk to Brandon Phillips about OBP. Last year it was, according to him, because he was batting 4th and his job was to drive runs in. Price needs to go talk to him and tell him that his job is to get on base. The RBI will come if he gets on base.

[UC_Ken]

I am still disappointed that the Votto/Bruce back-to-back in the lineup only lasted a week or so. I would really like to see them get back to that order, even if it is Votto and Bruce hitting 2nd and 3rd. Someone should really talk to Brandon Phillips about OBP. Last year it was, according to him, because he was batting 4th and his job was to drive runs in. Price needs to go talk to him and tell him that his job is to get on base. The RBI will come if he gets on base.

Baseball tradition is to hit your best hitter 3rd. Given the absence of 1-2 guys who know how to get on base I totally support Votto hitting second but has a team expected to contend ever had a 3 hitter who RC+ under 100 in the 2 full prior seasons? If the batter hitting in the lineups premier spot can't even create runs at a league average rate then we've got huge problems.

I'd start by moving up Bruce and Ludwick and probably have Mes hitting above him very soon.

[AtomicDumpling]

Lord, talk about stating the obvious. Do you really think I don't understand at that level?

Since they don't have more Jay Bruce's, they need more production from the slot on the team Bruce holds. There was no wishing him to be, I am talking about what the Reds need, not necessarily what a player is. Because Bruce isn't enough, they need another big bat on this team. I see nothing wrong with identifying a need and mentioning that Bruce's attributes make the Reds need a hitter better than him in the in lineup to be a more complete team. It may be a pipe dream, but it is nothing personal against Bruce. I hope he takes a big step forward this season as he approaches his prime years and maybe he'll fill the shoes needing filled and it is filling behind him, not ahead of him. But the clock continues to tick on his upside. Why does everyone have to be so defensive about certain players?

I was trying to politely point out the difference between "more consistent" and "consistently good". I'm sorry if it came off as rude. I wasn't calling you out, but since you reacted harshly I will elaborate. Yes I do think you don't understand at that level. You stated in post #578:

Wouldn't it be intuitive if a hitter produces X results, that being "more consistent," however we define this, is going to necessarily improve his numbers, create more runs, and improve his team's production?

That makes it quite clear you don't understand what "more consistent" means.

People are always saying "He needs to be more consistent". People say that all the time about many players. It is not just you. It is not just Jay Bruce. People don't understand what "more consistent" means. Some people think it means "consistently good", but it doesn't. It means evening out his production, taking away the lows and the highs but finishing in the end with the same production. Being more consistent does not improve a player's overall production, it doesn't create more runs and it doesn't make him better. Pointing out this fact has nothing to do with being defensive about Jay Bruce.

When you hear someone commenting that a player needs to be more consistent it instantly shows they don't know what they're talking about. People want to comment on a player but don't know what to say so all they can come up with is "he needs to be more consistent". It is a common way of saying nothing at all. Kind of like when people say "He is what he is". Some people speak without having anything to say.

People are free to critique Bruce's strengths and weaknesses. If you think Jay Bruce isn't good enough that is a valid opinion. If you wish Jay Bruce was a better player that is OK too. Claiming that a more consistent Jay Bruce is a better, more productive Jay Bruce is not a valid critique because it is not accurate and hence won't be taken seriously by most people.

[Old school 1983]

Baseball tradition is to hit your best hitter 3rd. Given the absence of 1-2 guys who know how to get on base I totally support Votto hitting second but has a team expected to contend ever had a 3 hitter who RC+ under 100 in the 2 full prior seasons? If the batter hitting in the lineups premier spot can't even create runs at a league average rate then we've got huge problems.

I'd start by moving up Bruce and Ludwick and probably have Mes hitting above him very soon.

I'm all for Mes batting 3 right now:

Hamilton
Votto
Mes
Bruce
Phillips
Ludwick
Frazier
Cozart

Maybe flip Mes and Bruce against tough righties. Ride Mes until he shows he shouldn't hit there. At that point put the current hottest right handed batter there and or look for one at the deadline.

[reds44]

I'm down with batting Mez 3rd, but I have a feeling when he cools off it'll be blamed because he "couldn't handle hitting third."

[757690]

What's awesome is that this thread was started over three years ago, is 42 pages long, and it doesn't look like anyone has changed their mind on Bruce.

[tomnuetten]

I am still disappointed that the Votto/Bruce back-to-back in the lineup only lasted a week or so. I would really like to see them get back to that order, even if it is Votto and Bruce hitting 2nd and 3rd. Someone should really talk to Brandon Phillips about OBP. Last year it was, according to him, because he was batting 4th and his job was to drive runs in. Price needs to go talk to him and tell him that his job is to get on base. The RBI will come if he gets on base.

I´m on the same page! Votto 2nd , Bruce 3rd, Rocco 4th (until he cools down, than put frazier, ludwick whoever gets hot there)... I would like to see BP as leadoff hitter trying to get on base! as soon as billy gets on base more frequently he gets the job back, but so far his obp is to bad to hit leadoff... and it is hard to GIDP while hitting leadoff

[CmdrCody]

Because it's so extreme and unlike any hitter in history?

Funny how old I must be. Johnny Bench would go 0 for 30 then hit 6 home runs in a week. He did this more than once in his career. Marty in his dementia fails to remember any of this. Reggie Jackson was the same way, but some of his managers were quoted that when he was on a streak it was amazing. He had several poor World Series until he had the great one when he was on a roll so he became Mister October. No body remembers what happened last year. Let's see what Jay Bruce's numbers are at the end of the year. I think that will tell the tale.
Oh don't look now but he's ripped the ball the last two days in Wrigley.

[CmdrCody]

I´m on the same page! Votto 2nd , Bruce 3rd, Rocco 4th (until he cools down, than put frazier, ludwick whoever gets hot there)... I would like to see BP as leadoff hitter trying to get on base! as soon as billy gets on base more frequently he gets the job back, but so far his obp is to bad to hit leadoff... and it is hard to GIDP while hitting leadoff

Hamilton is getting on base fine since April 9. I do agree with your 2,3,4 hitters. I'd put BP with Frazier and Ludwick.

[Old school 1983]

I'm down with batting Mez 3rd, but I have a feeling when he cools off it'll be blamed because he "couldn't handle hitting third."

At this point if he cools off he's still on fire. Right now he's like on nuclear fusion.

[traderumor]

I was trying to politely point out the difference between "more consistent" and "consistently good". I'm sorry if it came off as rude. I wasn't calling you out, but since you reacted harshly I will elaborate. Yes I do think you don't understand at that level. You stated in post #578:



That makes it quite clear you don't understand what "more consistent" means.

People are always saying "He needs to be more consistent". People say that all the time about many players. It is not just you. It is not just Jay Bruce. People don't understand what "more consistent" means. Some people think it means "consistently good", but it doesn't. It means evening out his production, taking away the lows and the highs but finishing in the end with the same production. Being more consistent does not improve a player's overall production, it doesn't create more runs and it doesn't make him better. Pointing out this fact has nothing to do with being defensive about Jay Bruce.

When you hear someone commenting that a player needs to be more consistent it instantly shows they don't know what they're talking about. People want to comment on a player but don't know what to say so all they can come up with is "he needs to be more consistent". It is a common way of saying nothing at all. Kind of like when people say "He is what he is". Some people speak without having anything to say.

People are free to critique Bruce's strengths and weaknesses. If you think Jay Bruce isn't good enough that is a valid opinion. If you wish Jay Bruce was a better player that is OK too. Claiming that a more consistent Jay Bruce is a better, more productive Jay Bruce is not a valid critique because it is not accurate and hence won't be taken seriously by most people.

With all due respect, you have entirely missed the point by taking the position that "people do not understand what 'more consistent' means." What you have elaborated on is already assumed in the discussion as far as I'm concerned, but thanks for the discourse.

[krm1580]

I am somewhat excited by Jay Bruce so far this year. Despite his .220 BA, he is still OPSing .822 and he is OPS+ at 124. If his walk rate stays close to where it is and his batting average normalizes to ~.260 he could be a 950+OPS bat.

For anybody who wants to break out the torches and pitch forks take a look at the guy the Reds are consistently batting in the 3 hole with the .627 OPS and the K/BB ratio that even Billy Hamilton rolls his eyes at. And before I am given a citation by the small sample size police I would suggest you plot his last 6 seasons on a graph and make the case for why he is going to get a whole lot better.

[UC_Ken]

I am somewhat excited by Jay Bruce so far this year. Despite his .220 BA, he is still OPSing .822 and he is OPS+ at 124. If his walk rate stays close to where it is and his batting average normalizes to ~.260 he could be a 950+OPS bat.

For anybody who wants to break out the torches and pitch forks take a look at the guy the Reds are consistently batting in the 3 hole with the .627 OPS and the K/BB ratio that even Billy Hamilton rolls his eyes at. And before I am given a citation by the small sample size police I would suggest you plot his last 6 seasons on a graph and make the case for why he is going to get a whole lot better.

I would agree with being excited about Jays start. He's stated that he wants to be more patient at the plate and it's paying off. His current walk rate is unsustainable but if his new approach can get his walk rate in the .090-.100 range that's a big deal.

As far as the second half goes I'm not touching that lightning rod other than to say I completely agree.