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Thread: Marty Brenneman joining the darkside?

  1. #1
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Marty Brenneman joining the darkside?

    I didn't hear this, but perhaps others did (as I live in Georgia).

    However, a friend of mine gave me a call and he said Brenneman was speaking this afternoon with Tracy Jones after the game and they were talking about the merits of a leadoff hitter and what they should be philosophically.

    Surprisingly, to Jones' assertion that he wanted leadoff hitters taking a lot of pitches and working the count, Brenneman asserted at the end of the day, the most important thing was that they avoid outs. Apparently it was the product of a saber-friendly article he had read and it actually changed his viewpoint on the subject.

    I find this interesting. I know Brenneman, right or wrong, popular or unpopular, had some views on a certain former Red and has been outspoken but still conservative in his baseball views. This was the first time I'd heard of him really starting to express that newer line of thinking.

    Anyone hear it? I'd be interested to hear more about the context of the conversation if so.
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    Member redhawkfish's Avatar
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    Re: Marty Brenneman joining the darkside?

    I heard it while taking a walk tonight. I almost stopped my walk when Marty said he thought the most important trait for a leadoff hitter was OBP and Tracy agreed with him.

    They proceeded to discuss the merits of players with speed and SB, and where those types pf players should hit in the line-up.
    Marty without explaining thought the sixth hole would be the best spot and Jones thought the eighth spot because it would be easier to sacrifice a speedier guy over.

    Tracy even brought up batting your highest OBP guys first even if they re also your sluggers. He even cited examples such as Bonds, Dunn, Sosa and Votto in their primes. Marty didn't agree with that idea, but amazingly wasn't condescending but stated he thought those guys should hit with better hitters in front of them.

    It was actually a well thought out interesting discussion to listen to.
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    Lets Go 'Bird' Hunting The Voice of IH's Avatar
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    Re: Marty Brenneman joining the darkside?

    I honestly feel that the players on this team with the highest OBP should be placed in the second and eighth spot. I feel this team competes the best when those two positions get on base.

    The Second hitter gets on base for Joey Votto and the meat of the order
    The Eighth hitter is able to flip the card. allowing the Reds to do business next inning.

    That is just my take though.
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    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Marty Brenneman joining the darkside?

    A leadoff hitter with a high OBP is important. There is no question about that. However I still think a leadoff hitter that makes a pitcher work is invaluable.
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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Marty Brenneman joining the darkside?

    I'd LOVE to see what Marty read that got to him. I'm fascinated by the process by which people start to accept sabermetric principals.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Member redhawkfish's Avatar
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    Re: Marty Brenneman joining the darkside?

    I forgot to say Marty did mention he really liked baseball reference.com
    "Why are those Dodger pitchers in the Reds bullpen?"-GAC August 28, 2009

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    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: Marty Brenneman joining the darkside?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    I didn't hear this, but perhaps others did (as I live in Georgia).

    However, a friend of mine gave me a call and he said Brenneman was speaking this afternoon with Tracy Jones after the game and they were talking about the merits of a leadoff hitter and what they should be philosophically.

    Surprisingly, to Jones' assertion that he wanted leadoff hitters taking a lot of pitches and working the count, Brenneman asserted at the end of the day, the most important thing was that they avoid outs. Apparently it was the product of a saber-friendly article he had read and it actually changed his viewpoint on the subject.

    I find this interesting. I know Brenneman, right or wrong, popular or unpopular, had some views on a certain former Red and has been outspoken but still conservative in his baseball views. This was the first time I'd heard of him really starting to express that newer line of thinking.

    Anyone hear it? I'd be interested to hear more about the context of the conversation if so.
    Hopefully Marty shared the article with Thom, Chris Welsh and Dusty Baker too -- they could use a remedial course in Modern Baseball 101: Basic Strategic Concepts.

    If the management and broadcasting team of the Reds have a 20th century understanding of 21st century baseball it is no wonder that most of the local fans are behind the curve as well. That is the reason why highly-productive players like Adam Dunn are vilified and out-machines like Ryan Freel are fan favorites.

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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Marty Brenneman joining the darkside?

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    That is the reason why highly-productive players like Adam Dunn are vilified and out-machines like Ryan Freel are fan favorites.
    Ryan Freel had a career .354 OBP. I think production vs. non-production is the wrong dynamic. Rather, it's that grit and perceived hustle are valued more than production. Call it Roseitis. For so long, one of our team's most productive, iconic player was grit personified. Ever since, some people seem to have trouble appreciating that you can be productive without being gritty and you can be gritty without being productive.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  10. #9
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Marty Brenneman joining the darkside?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    I didn't hear this, but perhaps others did (as I live in Georgia).

    However, a friend of mine gave me a call and he said Brenneman was speaking this afternoon with Tracy Jones after the game and they were talking about the merits of a leadoff hitter and what they should be philosophically.

    Surprisingly, to Jones' assertion that he wanted leadoff hitters taking a lot of pitches and working the count, Brenneman asserted at the end of the day, the most important thing was that they avoid outs. Apparently it was the product of a saber-friendly article he had read and it actually changed his viewpoint on the subject.

    I find this interesting. I know Brenneman, right or wrong, popular or unpopular, had some views on a certain former Red and has been outspoken but still conservative in his baseball views. This was the first time I'd heard of him really starting to express that newer line of thinking.

    Anyone hear it? I'd be interested to hear more about the context of the conversation if so.

    I'm not one who thinks high OBP is a new idea when it comes to leadoff hitters. I don't think it was Bill James that invented the idea.

    My guess is Marty's views on Dunn haven't changed. Regardless of Dunn's OBP, I'm sure Marty still thinks he should have driven in more runs

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    Re: Marty Brenneman joining the darkside?

    Welsh is into sabrmetrics. He mentions the stuff all the time.
    Heck, he mentioned BABIP the other day.

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    Re: Marty Brenneman joining the darkside?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    A leadoff hitter with a high OBP is important. There is no question about that. However I still think a leadoff hitter that makes a pitcher work is invaluable.
    To me the ideal lead-off guy is still one who has a combination of on base skills and speed. Not the best OBP guy, but a good one, and someone who makes the pitchers worry when they are on base, causing the pitchers to lose focus and serve it up to the 3 hitter. Much like what you are mentioning.

    Right now, Drew Stubbs is doing a fine job. He may strike out a lot, but his power is enough to make a pitcher think twice about grooving a fastball to start off the game.

    Drew Stubbs with a .345 OBP makes a pitcher work a lot more than a Juan Pierre type with a .345 OBP. Noone is worried Pierre is going to go deep, ever.
    "Today was the byproduct of us thinking we can come back from anything." - Joey Votto after blowing a 10-1 lead and holding on for the 12-11 win on 8/25/2010.

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    Pitching is the thing WVRedsFan's Avatar
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    Re: Marty Brenneman joining the darkside?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Ryan Freel had a career .354 OBP. I think production vs. non-production is the wrong dynamic. Rather, it's that grit and perceived hustle are valued more than production. Call it Roseitis. For so long, one of our team's most productive, iconic player was grit personified. Ever since, some people seem to have trouble appreciating that you can be productive without being gritty and you can be gritty without being productive.
    I thought this for years.
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    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Marty Brenneman joining the darkside?



    "Marty, I *am* your sabermetrician"

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    Re: Marty Brenneman joining the darkside?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Ryan Freel had a career .354 OBP. I think production vs. non-production is the wrong dynamic. Rather, it's that grit and perceived hustle are valued more than production. Call it Roseitis. For so long, one of our team's most productive, iconic player was grit personified. Ever since, some people seem to have trouble appreciating that you can be productive without being gritty and you can be gritty without being productive.
    It could go beyond even Rose, Johnny Temple might be the gatekeeper for the modern Reds prototype player, at least in the eyes of the Cincinnati media.

  16. #15
    Knowledge Is Good Big Klu's Avatar
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    Re: Marty Brenneman joining the darkside?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    It could go beyond even Rose, Johnny Temple might be the gatekeeper for the modern Reds prototype player, at least in the eyes of the Cincinnati media.
    What about Edd Roush?
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