I'm not sold on the Pirates

[Chip R]

It's coupled with the fact that they have two other powerhouse professional sports teams, so their real energy and analysis goes there and the Pirates are now just a ragtag fun bunch of losers to watch on the weekdays after the Stanley cup is over.

I think having two elite teams in your own city takes some of the pressure off of the other team(s). I'm sure Pirates management wants to win like every other organization but I think they don't really feel compelled to because the fans will sit there and take it because they have the Steelers and the Penguins. In Cincinnati, the Bengals were so bad the last 20 or so years that perhaps the Reds felt more pressure to put out a winner than the Pirates did/do. Plus Cincinnati is more of a baseball town than Pittsburgh.

[traderumor]

I think having two elite teams in your own city takes some of the pressure off of the other team(s). I'm sure Pirates management wants to win like every other organization but I think they don't really feel compelled to because the fans will sit there and take it because they have the Steelers and the Penguins. In Cincinnati, the Bengals were so bad the last 20 or so years that perhaps the Reds felt more pressure to put out a winner than the Pirates did/do. Plus Cincinnati is more of a baseball town than Pittsburgh.

Yea, we at least fill the house for playoff series. Pittsburgh hasn't always been able to say even that.

However, I think this is all about competence moreso than lacking a sense of urgency. These are men running these organizations, so I know their competitive nature won't allow them to be comfortable losing.

[Chip R]

Yea, we at least fill the house for playoff series. Pittsburgh hasn't always been able to say even that.

Well, I remember the Reds not selling out their home playoff games in the mid-90s. We'll see what happens next week if the games are played in early-mid-late afternoon or Friday night.

However, I think this is all about competence moreso than lacking a sense of urgency. These are men running these organizations, so I know their competitive nature won't allow them to be comfortable losing.

I don't think "comfortable" is the right word. As I said, I don't think they feel compelled to win. Of course they want to win. Everybody does. And, yes, competence may have something to do with it. But they may not feel the compulsion to win because the fans have other sports to fill their desire to win. If the Bengals had been on a par with the Steelers for the last generation, would the Reds have felt the need to put a superior product on the field? It's just a theory. Huntington, et. al. may have a burning desire to win but perhaps he and his staff aren't good enough.

[traderumor]

Well, I remember the Reds not selling out their home playoff games in the mid-90s. We'll see what happens next week if the games are played in early-mid-late afternoon or Friday night.



I don't think "comfortable" is the right word. As I said, I don't think they feel compelled to win. Of course they want to win. Everybody does. And, yes, competence may have something to do with it. But they may not feel the compulsion to win because the fans have other sports to fill their desire to win. If the Bengals had been on a par with the Steelers for the last generation, would the Reds have felt the need to put a superior product on the field? It's just a theory. Huntington, et. al. may have a burning desire to win but perhaps he and his staff aren't good enough.

1995 Game 3 NLDS attendance 53,276, which would have been SRO at Riverfront, which I recall capacity was in the 52,000 range for baseball. In the NLCS, you are correct, attendance was in the 40s for both home games.

I'd venture to say that the lower capacity makes game time moot in the current environment. 1995 was post strike and Cincy had some fan backlash that is long gone by now.

As for the Pirates, I think it all is the competence issue. That is the motivator for anyone in this business. While the fans may not be as vocal with displeasure because of the competition, no one owns a baseball franchise for ROI--its rich man monopoly and they are all out to win. Just some don't have a clue and can't seem to hire anyone who does, either.

And I won't be surprised to see Huntington get the axe with the last two collapses and the bad press with the Special Ops training exercises. His job is very tenuous, as it should be.

[WVRed]

Pittsburgh has the Steelers. That's all they need, and as much I despise the Steelers....I can't blame them.

Pittsburgh fans will support a winner. PNC Park was sold out when they were winning and even the Penguins, who were on the verge of moving before they got their new arena, have attracted crowds.

I've been to Pittsburgh three times to watch the Reds, the most recently being this past weekend. The older Pirates fans I have found are more knowledgeable about baseball and courteous to those out of town. One example was this weekend my wife and I went to IHOP before the game in the Robinson Town Center area and while my wife went to the restroom, a gentleman stopped me and said "Good luck in the playoffs, my buddy was at the game on Friday night and said watching the no-hitter was something else".

Only thing I can figure is the decades of futility have mellowed out the fans. If only two decades of losing would happen with the Steelers, the world would be a more peaceful place.

[vaticanplum]

Only thing I can figure is the decades of futility have mellowed out the fans. If only two decades of losing would happen with the Steelers, the world would be a more peaceful place.

I feel fluffy at the thought alone. We can dream.

[WebScorpion]

I feel fluffy at the thought alone. We can dream.

Er, is fluffy good?

[WVRedsFan]

I feel fluffy at the thought alone. We can dream.

It will happen. And when it does, I will have a field day with my obnoxious brothers-in-law. It's sad, but I've put up with so much stuff that I root against the Steelers every game. Once the Pirates crapped out, it was all Steelers all the time. And then they lost two of three and it was the replacement refs and it couldn't have been Saint Ben. Earlier it was Saint Cutch, but he's long forgotten.

Sorry for the rant. I really feel for you up there. And the sad part is I like Pittsburgh as a rule, but their fans give me heartburn.

[Tom Servo]

Alright, I'm officially bringing this thread back for 2013. The addition of Marte as well the addition of Martin/subtraction of Barajas has improved my opinion of their offense, but much like the first half of last year I think their pitching is performing way over their heads and they are due a correction in the second half.

I'm not saying the Pirates will definitely collapse yet again, but I'm still not sure why people are giving them the benefit of the doubt.

[757690]

Locke and Gomez won't be this good all year, but they don't have to be. Cole should fill in for one of them, and might end up being the best pitcher on the staff.

The pen is for real, and a pen as good as the Pirates, can take a team pretty far.

One overlooked improvement is that Tabata and Alverez have matured into decent players. Not stars, but they aren't hurting the Pirates like they did their first few years.

If I had to bet, I'd put my money on the Pirates to win the division this year.

[Tom Servo]

Locke and Gomez won't be this good all year, but they don't have to be. Cole should fill in for one of them, and might end up being the best pitcher on the staff.

The pen is for real, and a pen as good as the Pirates, can take a team pretty far.

One overlooked improvement is that Tabata and Alverez have matured into decent players. Not stars, but they aren't hurting the Pirates like they did their first few years.

If I had to bet, I'd put my money on the Pirates to win the division this year.

It's been 3 starts for Cole, awfully early to be crowning him best pitcher of anything.

The bullpen may be 'for real', but Jason Grilli isn't going to continue to convert every single save and they are racking up a lot of innings over the first few months.

Alvarez is pretty much exactly what he always is, and Tabata has all of 90 plate appearances this year.

[RedEye]

One overlooked improvement is that Tabata and Alverez have matured into decent players. Not stars, but they aren't hurting the Pirates like they did their first few years.

Hasn't Tabata mostly been replaced by Marte this year? Alvarez looks like pretty much the same old Alvarez we've come to know and love. He's kind of like an Adam Dunn who doesn't walk and can play (a little) D at 3B. Okay, he's nothing like Adam Dunn, but you get the idea.

[IABucFan]

Hasn't Tabata mostly been replaced by Marte this year?

Yes and no. Tabata was playing some right field before getting hurt. RF has been the Pirates biggest weakness to date. Travis Snider has not been close to what they were hoping for. A platoon in right with Tabata and Snider is what they were looking to do at the start of the year.

[TOBTTReds]

It's been 3 starts for Cole, awfully early to be crowning him best pitcher of anything.

It's not like he came out of nowhere, he's been said to have some of the top stuff in all of baseball and was a #1 overall pick. But in your defense, he didn't pitch all this well in the minors all year, so maybe he just has that new guy success right now. I think his control will come back to haunt him soon. If not, we are in trouble. He also only has 8 k's in in his first 18 ip. So maybe some luck is involved, but he's throwing the ball well right now.

As a side note, when Jameson Taillon comes up next year, their rotation is going to be filthy, if it isn't already.

[IABucFan]

It's not like he came out of nowhere, he's been said to have some of the top stuff in all of baseball and was a #1 overall pick. But in your defense, he didn't pitch all this well in the minors all year, so maybe he just has that new guy success right now. I think his control will come back to haunt him soon. If not, we are in trouble. He also only has 8 k's in in his first 18 ip. So maybe some luck is involved, but he's throwing the ball well right now.

As a side note, when Jameson Taillon comes up next year, their rotation is going to be filthy, if it isn't already.

Keep an eye on Nick Kingham and Luis Heredia as well.