I'm not sold on the Pirates

[bucksfan2]

I don't see how Huntington is anymore to blame than Hurdle. His moves may not have been perfect, but the results both on the field and in the farm system have been light years ahead of Bonifay and Littlefield.

That said, his trades when the team was in contention this year and last year were pretty uninspired, but a big part of that may be the lack of payroll available to make a splash.

If you were to look at the Pirates season after the final game is played this year would anything shock you? Pretty much everything said on Opening Day this season about the Pirates has shown to be pretty accurate. As of today they are a 74-74 team, didn't many expect them to hover around the .500 mark this season? Didn't people expect AJ Burnett to have a bounce back year going from the AL East to the NL Central? Didn't we think that McCutchen is a heck of a player but the offense had some pretty big holes? A guy like McDonald having a great first half was a little unexpected, but he is going to end the season right around his career norms.

If I were a Pirates fan I would be pulling my hair out right now, but I would also respect the job Huntington has done. The last thing you want to do is arrive a year earlier than expected and empty the farm for that season. In order to compete the Pirates need to make the right trades and right moves. Similar to the Reds if they are going to trade for a TOR starter or a impact bat, it has to be someone they control for a number or years a la Latos. Trading a couple of stud prospects for Greinke would have sounded nice at the time but you can always get a league average Greinke (100 ERA+ since his trade to the Angles) only to see him walk after the season is over.

[Tom Servo]

I think the Pittsburgh offense would be fine if they got any sort of decent offensive production from their catcher and shortstop position. Yeah they don't have any other superstars past McCutchen, but Walker, Alvarez, and Jones are a solid core. And I do think Gaby Sanchez was a good pickup as well. But man, Barajas and Barmes just killed them.

[traderumor]

I think the Pittsburgh offense would be fine if they got any sort of decent offensive production from their catcher and shortstop position. Yeah they don't have any other superstars past McCutchen, but Walker, Alvarez, and Jones are a solid core. And I do think Gaby Sanchez was a good pickup as well. But man, Barajas and Barmes just killed them.

With all due respect, if they are, then they would be better. That would be half of their lineup. I will add that I omitted Walker as a part of the core in my earlier comments, but I don't think including him makes a difference.

[PuffyPig]

Except Wandy's a difference maker there going forward.

He's declining K-rate may suggest otherwise.

But in checking his stats, he's been more effective than I thought this year.

[mdccclxix]

I wonder if they'd try to woo AJ Pyrzinski from Chicago? I doubt he'd go to Pit. There aren't any good SS's available, but they've got this Brock Holt guy who's 24 and hit .859 in AAA this year.

[mdccclxix]

They really only have McCutchen. All the rest is why they are a .500 at best squad. I don't think they are going places with Alvarez, Tabata, Jones, maybe Marte as a core, but that is what they have. On the major league roster, they are about where the Reds were in maybe 2008-2009, more pitching and less position talent, but needing to have some major contributions from pitching prospects to take a big step forward. Continuing to nibble away at the fringe is a zero sum game, though, and that is what they seem to limit themselves to.

If you think they're at all similar to the 2009 Reds, why wouldn't you concede a 2010 Reds type season could happen if things break right? That's all I'm saying. I think we agree, as I began, if their pitching prospects work out they're going to be a-ok. And FWIW, I really don't get the impression they're nibbling on the fringe like they were at one time. They acquired Wandy, which is a relatively big move. They also picked up Burnett in a shrewd move. Now they're set for 2013 better than I can remember them being, rotation-wise, for years and years. I don't know they're money situation, but if they pickup one more vet like they have (the 2013 FA class is actually interesting for SP), they will really be setting themselves up well.

Their offense has been as much the problem down the stretch, and throughout the year, as anything. If any one of Snider, Sanchez, Marte, Alverez, or Tabata perform nearer to their projections, that could make for an interesting squad, assuming Cutch, Walker and Jones do what they've typically done. IMO, they need a guy to hit .300 to produce some runs.

[traderumor]

If you think they're at all similar to the 2009 Reds, why wouldn't you concede a 2010 Reds type season could happen if things break right? That's all I'm saying. I think we agree, as I began, if their pitching prospects work out they're going to be a-ok. And FWIW, I really don't get the impression they're nibbling on the fringe like they were at one time. They acquired Wandy, which is a relatively big move. They also picked up Burnett in a shrewd move. Now they're set for 2013 better than I can remember them being, rotation-wise, for years and years. I don't know they're money situation, but if they pickup one more vet like they have (the 2013 FA class is actually interesting for SP), they will really be setting themselves up well.

Their offense has been as much the problem down the stretch, and throughout the year, as anything. If any one of Snider, Sanchez, Marte, Alverez, or Tabata perform nearer to their projections, that could make for an interesting squad, assuming Cutch, Walker and Jones do what they've typically done. IMO, they need a guy to hit .300 to produce some runs.

Because the 2010 Reds were mostly in house at this time of the year in 2009. The Pirates still have significant upgrades to make and unpromoted prospects to take them to the next level. I believe they need to make a splash this offseason to make that happen.

Their rotation as you outlined it is likely to give the same results as this year, which again, has netted a "competitive" team, not a contender.

[mdccclxix]

Because the 2010 Reds were mostly in house at this time of the year in 2009. The Pirates still have significant upgrades to make and unpromoted prospects to take them to the next level. I believe they need to make a splash this offseason to make that happen.

Their rotation as you outlined it is likely to give the same results as this year, which again, has netted a "competitive" team, not a contender.

I'd say the Reds were a rag tag bunch until Scotty Rolen showed up. That may be the difference between the two teams we're talking about. If the Pirates could find a leader behind the dish, that would be ideal. Someone to hit closer to .300.

[camisadelgolf]

[PuffyPig]

I think the Pittsburgh offense would be fine if they got any sort of decent offensive production from their catcher and shortstop position.

The Reds ranked 9th in the NL this year with a .700 OPS from it's catchers. The Pirates ranked 10th at .699.

[Tom Servo]

The Reds ranked 9th in the NL this year with a .700 OPS from it's catchers. The Pirates ranked 10th at .699.

This is true. But Barajas has gotten the lions share of the playing time and his .609 OPS is lower than even Devin Mesoraco's.

[Chip R]

I take it that's that that flexible ticket pricing?

[camisadelgolf]

I take it that's that that flexible ticket pricing?

No, if that were the case, I believe they'd be paying the fans to show up.

[PuffyPig]

This is true. But Barajas has gotten the lions share of the playing time and his .609 OPS is lower than even Devin Mesoraco's.

But the .699 number is the average of all catchers who have played for the Pirates. Why would a smaller sample size number (base on one player's stats) be better at judging the Pirates offense from catcher rather than looking at all of the numbers? When Barajas hasn't been catching, the Pirates presumably have gotten excellent offense production from catching. Why ignore that?

[Tom Servo]

But the .699 number is the average of all catchers who have played for the Pirates. Why would a smaller sample size number (base on one player's stats) be better at judging the Pirates offense from catcher rather than looking at all of the numbers? When Barajas hasn't been catching, the Pirates presumably have gotten excellent offense production from catching. Why ignore that?

Because I don't want to admit I was wrong.