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Thread: Cardinals discussion thread

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    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Cardinals discussion thread

    To avoid the inevitable hijack of the Scoreboard thread lol

    I'll assert what I said in the other thread: I think the Cardinals, even if healthy, were somewhat of a mirage. They aren't a bad team, but they weren't as good as they were playing.

    Especially with Pujols out of the lineup, I think Berkman is going to come down to earth even more. They just don't have the pop and their rotation outside of two guys wasn't that good to begin with.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals discussion thread

    despite their poor defense I think the Brewers are the best team in the division. that could change if the Reds make some moves (likely dependent on Bob upping the payroll)

    i think the Cards best days are behind them. i said that earlier in the season but they have hung on quite well despite the loss of one of the best pitchers in baseball. however, to me it seems that you can only hang in there so long with scrappy players, mix and match platoons, smoke & mirrors, vets having a miracle 1rst half, etc. eventually you have to get some real talent onto the roster. in the Cards case they just lost Pujols. ouch! i just don't see them winning the NL Central this year.
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    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Will M View Post
    despite their poor defense I think the Brewers are the best team in the division. that could change if the Reds make some moves (likely dependent on Bob upping the payroll)

    i think the Cards best days are behind them. i said that earlier in the season but they have hung on quite well despite the loss of one of the best pitchers in baseball. however, to me it seems that you can only hang in there so long with scrappy players, mix and match platoons, smoke & mirrors, vets having a miracle 1rst half, etc. eventually you have to get some real talent onto the roster. in the Cards case they just lost Pujols. ouch! i just don't see them winning the NL Central this year.
    I don't know if the Brewers are the best, but they're certainly not worse.

    They match the Reds at almost every position offensively, and exceed them at some. They obviously have two very good pitchers that are (arguably) as or more talented than anyone the Reds have, and they have a good back-end of the pen. But their defense and the middle of their bullpen are pretty substantially bad.

    I think the Brewers have more talent in collection, but I also think they have more holes in their roster. I picked the Brewers to win the division in the poll the other day, but more because I just think the Reds are lacking that extra pitcher and extra hitter they need to put it together, and things also haven't gone their way in total. I'm not pessimistic, but I'm also not optimistic. And it's really not that I'm so bullish on Milwaukee. I do believe they have enough holes to keep the Reds in striking distance.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Cardinals discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    To avoid the inevitable hijack of the Scoreboard thread lol

    I'll assert what I said in the other thread: I think the Cardinals, even if healthy, were somewhat of a mirage. They aren't a bad team, but they weren't as good as they were playing.

    Especially with Pujols out of the lineup, I think Berkman is going to come down to earth even more. They just don't have the pop and their rotation outside of two guys wasn't that good to begin with.
    As was said numerous times in the Scoreboard Thread, its coming from both sides. If someone brings up a topic such as "oh there are those dang Cards regressing to the means", I'm not going to sit back and have that go unchallenged. Its the point of a discussion board. To debate topics. If the definition of "hijacking" a thread is responding to a point, than everyone here is guilty of hijacking threads.

    Anyway, getting to your original point, the Cards have done well enough thus far to stay in the division race so you might think its all smoke and mirrors but since we are half way through the year essentially it would be silly to underestimate them. This is especially true when the management of the Cardinals has a history of dealing chips to bolster their team. If the Cards were to acquire someone of Heath Bell's stature before the trade deadline, that would give them a great chance to compete in a weak division.

    I also know that nobody here is sold on David Freese but he is a huge boon to the lineup. His impact since he has come back from the DL has already been felt. If Matt Holliday continues to produce, David Freese continues to produce, Colby Rasmus somehow finds a way to stop doing his best impression of Jay Bruce and being a streaky hitter, and Theriot continues to be a solid leadoff guy I think the Cards will be primed to make a run in August once Pujols comes back.

    Last year, many Cards fans stupidly felt the same way about the Reds. That they were over achieving, playing above their heads, etc. Where were those fans at the end of the season? At home watching the Reds win the division and have a shot at a championship. I would caution Reds fans into thinking the Cards are all smoke and mirrors and hoping they will just falter. Hope generally doesn't reflect reality.
    Last edited by MikeThierry; 06-30-2011 at 07:34 PM.
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    Re: Cardinals discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    To avoid the inevitable hijack of the Scoreboard thread lol

    I'll assert what I said in the other thread: I think the Cardinals, even if healthy, were somewhat of a mirage. They aren't a bad team, but they weren't as good as they were playing.

    Especially with Pujols out of the lineup, I think Berkman is going to come down to earth even more. They just don't have the pop and their rotation outside of two guys wasn't that good to begin with.
    I'll believe the Cards won't be a factor when they're mathematically eliminated and not before. Seems like they could bat Juan Castro and Paul Janish in the three and four spots all summer long and still contend.

    That being said, the Brewers and Reds are still the best teams in the division (on paper) and it should come down to those two, with the Cards and Pirates hanging relatively close and seriously playing spoiler for either us or the Crew.

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    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals discussion thread

    One huge issue for the Brewers is Marcum. He hasn't been very good lately. A big part of that is there are some nagging injuries on him from what I understand. He has really been their most consistent pitcher and if anything happens to him, that could put the Brewers in a bind.

    For some reason I just cannot pick the Brewers to win the division because of how bad they play on the road. They are almost like the Carlos Gonzalez of baseball teams at this point.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

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    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals discussion thread

    which teams are going to make moves to improve their teams at the deadline?
    folks point to a cupboard lacking prospects & then say that the Brewers can't improve their team. IMO that arguement may have worked in 1971 but its 2011. The team could send two shoe shine boys & get a real player back in return. How? take the guys salary. there are so so many teams today looking to cut payroll that a team who is willing to add payroll can get value. i think the division may come down to moves made over the next 31 days. if thats true then i can't be a Pollyanna for the Reds. the current management seems to lack money & IMO creativity.

    Mike you are right about Bell. The Cards have been linked to him. Lets say the Cards get Bell. Then they go out & get a SS (and move Theriot to 2B). suddenly its a whole new race. I would bet the odds of something like this happening as better than the Reds going out & fixing their holes.
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    Re: Cardinals discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    One huge issue for the Brewers is Marcum. He hasn't been very good lately. A big part of that is there are some nagging injuries on him from what I understand. He has really been their most consistent pitcher and if anything happens to him, that could put the Brewers in a bind.

    For some reason I just cannot pick the Brewers to win the division because of how bad they play on the road. They are almost like the Carlos Gonzalez of baseball teams at this point.
    i never was sold on Marcum...any time someone moves from the AL East buzzers and whistles start going off all across the land and the talking heads seem to think those guys barely need to show up to dominate all "us" middling divisions.

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    Re: Cardinals discussion thread

    It's hard to discount the Cards when they're on the verge of sweeping Baltimore rather easily after we went in there and got lit up like a Christmas tree.

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    Re: Cardinals discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    As was said numerous times in the Scoreboard Thread, its coming from both sides. If someone brings up a topic such as "oh there are those dang Cards regressing to the means", I'm not going to sit back and have that go unchallenged. Its the point of a discussion board. To debate topics. If the definition of "hijacking" a thread is responding to a point, than everyone here is guilty of hijacking threads.

    Anyway, getting to your original point, the Cards have done well enough thus far to stay in the division race so you might think its all smoke and mirrors but since we are half way through the year essentially it would be silly to underestimate them. This is especially true when the management of the Cardinals has a history of dealing chips to bolster their team. If the Cards were to acquire someone of Heath Bell's stature before the trade deadline, that would give them a great chance to compete in a weak division.

    I also know that nobody here is sold on David Freese but he is a huge boon to the lineup. His impact since he has come back from the DL has already been felt. If Matt Holliday continues to produce, David Freese continues to produce, Colby Rasmus somehow finds a way to stop doing his best impression of Jay Bruce and being a streaky hitter, and Theriot continues to be a solid leadoff guy I think the Cards will be primed to make a run in August once Pujols comes back.

    Last year, many Cards fans stupidly felt the same way about the Reds. That they were over achieving, playing above their heads, etc. Where were those fans at the end of the season? At home watching the Reds win the division and have a shot at a championship. I would caution Reds fans into thinking the Cards are all smoke and mirrors and hoping they will just falter. Hope generally doesn't reflect reality.
    First, did I accuse you in particular of hijacking? I just said it was getting hijacked. No reason to take that personally. It takes two to tango, so clearly if the thread was getting derailed, it wasn't all one person. It doesn't even matter who was doing it. Just pointing out that it was happening, and so I figured I'd start a thread dedicated to the topic since it was coming up.

    Bell would be a nice acquisition, but I think the Cards' have more pressing issues. Their inability to finish games has been noted, but so too has been their holes at second and short, their mediocre rotation 3-5 (Lohse is outperforming his FIP by nearly an entire run something I'm sure you will take issue with) and worst of all, the Cardinals are in the bottom quadrant of baseball at Defensive Efficiency Ratio.

    Put it all together, and the Cardinals have a lot of problems.

    I think, as far as Freese is concerned, it's more that you're overrating him than anyone is underrating him. He's a 28-year old with 400 career plate appearances, a .352 wOBA -- which is mostly fueled by an extremely unsustainable .400 career BABIP. Give him a full season (which seems unlikely given his propensity for injuries), and he's likely to have a modest OPS in the lower to mid .700's which is essentially average.

    As far as your last comment, "Last year, many Cards fans stupidly felt the same way about the Reds. That they were over achieving, playing above their heads, etc. Where were those fans at the end of the season? At home watching the Reds win the division and have a shot at a championship. I would caution Reds fans into thinking the Cards are all smoke and mirrors and hoping they will just falter. Hope generally doesn't reflect reality."

    You want to know why this isn't even remotely comparable?

    Reds 2010 run differential on June 30: +78
    Cards 2011 run differential on June 30: +24

    Cardinals' fans not taking the Reds' seriously by this point were truly digging their heads in the sand. The Cardinals are a decent team, but now they're a decent team without its best player for the next month or more. And they already had holes as it were.

    That run differential between last year's Reds and this year's Cardinals' team is pretty distinctive.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Cardinals discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    Hope generally doesn't reflect reality.
    You ended you post with what should have been the title.

    Because many feel that describes your feelings on the Cards.

    Again I have to ask you "You do understand this is a Reds board". You continually seem confused when no one shows the Cards much love.

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    Re: Cardinals discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Reds/Flyers Fan View Post
    It's hard to discount the Cards when they're on the verge of sweeping Baltimore rather easily after we went in there and got lit up like a Christmas tree.
    While we lost 2 out of 3, we outscored them 19-17 which is hardly "getting lit up like a Christmas tree".

    FCB, is that you there?

    Hello, hello?

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    Re: Cardinals discussion thread

    I never discount the Cards or practically any other team for that matter...must be my paranoid nature 'cause lately I've even been checking the "bucco's" score. It'll be interesting to see how this next Reds/Cards series plays out because the Reds really seemed to get over a hump the last time they met. Usually our boys look a little tight and have a little deer in the headlights thing going on when they meet and I can't wait to find out if that's a thing of the past.

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    Re: Cardinals discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    While we lost 2 out of 3, we outscored them 19-17 which is hardly "getting lit up like a Christmas tree".

    FCB, is that you there?

    Hello, hello?
    I'd be happy with getting outscored 49-2 in any three game series, as long as my team wins a pair. I'm sure the O's and their fans feel the same way about the series and the Reds' 10-run outburst on Saturday.

    The Cardinals aren't doing anything that impressive this series, they're just doing what contenders are supposed to do when they go into Camden Yards - win.

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    Re: Cardinals discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Reds/Flyers Fan View Post
    I'd be happy with getting outscored 49-2 in any three game series, as long as my team wins a pair. I'm sure the O's and their fans feel the same way about the series and the Reds' 10-run outburst on Saturday.

    The Cardinals aren't doing anything that impressive this series, they're just doing what contenders are supposed to do when they go into Camden Yards - win.
    Someone may have been onto something earlier when they speculated this is FCB.......


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