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Thread: 2011 Futures Game on ESPN2

  1. #31
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    Re: 2011 Futures Game on ESPN2

    The catcher "problem" is one to sort out two years from now, when you have more visibility into Votto's long-term status as well as Grandal's major league ETA. Unless of course you trade Grandal and/or Alonso before then for other pieces, which I'm fine with.
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  3. #32
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    Re: 2011 Futures Game on ESPN2

    The catcher "problem" is one to sort out two years from now, when you have more visibility into Votto's long-term status as well as Grandal's major league ETA. Unless of course you trade Grandal and/or Alonso before then for other pieces, which I'm fine with.
    Two years is likely too late. The viability of Votto long-term, if Jocketty does not already understand what that is, will be clearer after Fielder and Pujols sign this offseason. After those guys are signed, and the zeros on their contracts are echoing around baseball, some obvious trade partners may emerge (losers in the Fielder/Pujols bidding). With 2 years left on his contract, Votto may be at his most marketable, and for a good return.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  4. #33
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    Re: 2011 Futures Game on ESPN2

    Any chance Grandal can play LF? Frankly, if Votto's to go, and I think he will, I'd like to have Alonso, Mesoraco, and Grandal in the lineup.

  5. #34
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    Re: 2011 Futures Game on ESPN2

    I'd rather keep Votto and Mes and deal Grandal and Alonso for some actual bonafide effective starting pitching. You can find guys to play other spots. I think a guy with a plus bat who can catch is very valuable and playing him at another spot simply erodes that value. I'd rather deal that full excess value for similar value at an area of need (and that might be other areas from time to time but is always the rotation).
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

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  6. #35
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    Re: 2011 Futures Game on ESPN2

    I'd rather keep Votto and Mes and deal Grandal and Alonso for some actual bonafide effective starting pitching. You can find guys to play other spots. I think a guy with a plus bat who can catch is very valuable and playing him at another spot simply erodes that value. I'd rather deal that full excess value for similar value at an area of need (and that might be other areas from time to time but is always the rotation).
    You very well may be right. If the Reds can parlay Grandal and others into a #1 or #2 starter under control for at least 2 more years, it's arguably worth it. But it could also amount to a blight in the post-Votto years, assuming he leaves, especially if Alonso is sent packing too.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  7. #36
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    Re: 2011 Futures Game on ESPN2

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    You very well may be right. If the Reds can parlay Grandal and others into a #1 or #2 starter under control for at least 2 more years, it's arguably worth it. But it could also amount to a blight in the post-Votto years, assuming he leaves, especially if Alonso is sent packing too.
    I think the future of Joey Votto is the key paradox here. I think the Reds need him to be "the guy" and no matter who they have to replace him with it won't be good enough. To keep him, I think the Reds really need to show they are commited to winning which IMO means dealing one of the catchers and Alonso. Of course, if he goes and those guys are dealt it could be back to the lato 90s for this team (an era that I hated almost as much as the lost decade.

    Keep Alonso and the catchers and I think the Reds won't be able to fill thier needs to the level needed to win and Votto will walk in a self fulfilling prophecy. Deal those guys and go all in to win and maybe he'll stick around (though the lack of a safety net is a reason for being reluctant).
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  8. #37
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    Re: 2011 Futures Game on ESPN2

    My assumption, and I hope it proves to be wrong, is that the Reds will not be able to afford Joey Votto for the long term. If that's the case, the best move seems to me to keep Alonso, Mesoraco, and Grandal--if a way can be found to play all three at one time--and to move Votto at the most advantageous time. But, at this point, I've no reason to think one of Alonso, Mesoraco, or Grandal can play left, where one of them would have to play in order to get them all in the lineup. (I discount the possibility of one of them playing third). From what we've heard here on the Minor League board, it seems unlikely we can really think of Alonso in LF. Hence my question: can Grandal play it, assuming Mesoraco cannot?

  9. #38
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    Re: 2011 Futures Game on ESPN2

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    My assumption, and I hope it proves to be wrong, is that the Reds will not be able to afford Joey Votto for the long term. If that's the case, the best move seems to me to keep Alonso, Mesoraco, and Grandal--if a way can be found to play all three at one time--and to move Votto at the most advantageous time. But, at this point, I've no reason to think one of Alonso, Mesoraco, or Grandal can play left, where one of them would have to play in order to get them all in the lineup. (I discount the possibility of one of them playing third). From what we've heard here on the Minor League board, it seems unlikely we can really think of Alonso in LF. Hence my question: can Grandal play it, assuming Mesoraco cannot?
    The Reds are going to be paying Votto $19 Million in 2013. To keep him around they really only need to bump him up a few Million annually (money that could be freed in the budget by avoiding giving several million to the likes of Renteria, Lewis and Gomes). The depth that the Reds are so touted for should be used to fill the bit parts to save millions on the fringes of the roster instead of trying to backfill for the centerpiece with unproven kids.

    The issue with Votto isn't money IMO. The Reds can swing it. The issue is his willingness to stay. I think that is going to be determined by showing they'll go out and add what is needed to the team and IMO that means dealing the very guys we want to keep around as the safety net.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  10. #39
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    Re: 2011 Futures Game on ESPN2

    The issue with Votto isn't money IMO. The Reds can swing it.
    Not so fast there. When you're talking the kind of contract Votto is likely to command once he hits full-blown free agency, it's magnitudes larger than what he's getting now in total dollars. For a first baseman -- when there are a few good young bats that could take over that position already in the system? The issue, at that point, IS money.

    Reds are mid-market at best. Probably closer to small. Unless they can get a discount from Votto, I don't think it makes sense for them to go outbidding the rest of major league baseball for a player for whom they have adequate replacements in-house.

    I wish they'd gotten more years out of Votto on his current contract. I suppose there's an outside chance he will decide to help out the Reds with a team-friendly long-term deal at some point in the future, but my guess is that that ship has sailed.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  11. #40
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    Re: 2011 Futures Game on ESPN2

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    My assumption, and I hope it proves to be wrong, is that the Reds will not be able to afford Joey Votto for the long term. If that's the case, the best move seems to me to keep Alonso, Mesoraco, and Grandal--if a way can be found to play all three at one time--and to move Votto at the most advantageous time. But, at this point, I've no reason to think one of Alonso, Mesoraco, or Grandal can play left, where one of them would have to play in order to get them all in the lineup. (I discount the possibility of one of them playing third). From what we've heard here on the Minor League board, it seems unlikely we can really think of Alonso in LF. Hence my question: can Grandal play it, assuming Mesoraco cannot?
    Mesoraco probably has the speed to play left adequately. Grandal has the same thick lower half as Alonso though, so I don't like his chances. On top of that, I don't think Grandal's proven to have the bat to just move all over the field at will. He's possibly an above average to plus bat at catcher, but I don't think there's any reason to believe at this point that he'll have a better bat than Sappelt in two years.

    Even if it is a marginal upgrade over what we have, there's just no reason to put Grandal in left field when tons of teams all over the league would be willing to pay up big for a young offensive catcher.

  12. #41
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    Re: 2011 Futures Game on ESPN2

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Not so fast there. When you're talking the kind of contract Votto is likely to command once he hits full-blown free agency, it's magnitudes larger than what he's getting now in total dollars. For a first baseman -- when there are a few good young bats that could take over that position already in the system? The issue, at that point, IS money.

    Reds are mid-market at best. Probably closer to small. Unless they can get a discount from Votto, I don't think it makes sense for them to go outbidding the rest of major league baseball for a player for whom they have adequate replacements in-house.

    I wish they'd gotten more years out of Votto on his current contract. I suppose there's an outside chance he will decide to help out the Reds with a team-friendly long-term deal at some point in the future, but my guess is that that ship has sailed.
    They can swing $19 Million in 2013. How much higher will he go annually? I'd say 6 for 150 looks like it would keep him through his productive years and that's just a matter of using the youth to fill the fringes of the roster at the minumum rather than giving that money to the Renterias, Lewises, Gomeses, Arredodnos and Cairos, etc. Add that to his salary slot in 2013 and he's in.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS


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