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Thread: Pirates file protest

  1. #1
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Pirates file protest

    The Pirates filed a protest with Major League Baseball over the 'controversial' ending to the 19-inning game in Atlanta last night.

    For those that didn't see or hear about it, a ball was hit to third with one out and a runner at third. The Pirates went home on the play and the catcher tried a swipe tag of the runner. The umpire called the runner safe for the winning run, believing the tag was missed completely.

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/68...19-inning-loss

    Personally, I have been having a hard time to get outraged about this one. I've watched this thing a half-dozen times and there is no point in the replays I've seen where I can definitively make out the glove coming in contact with the runner. I think the right call was made, personally.

    The best vantage point of the above video is pausing it at 36 seconds in and going forward or back a frame. You can see the shadows of the glove against the runner's thighs, but you can't tell for certain if the glove is coming in contact with the knee. I could see an argument made for it... but it's not conclusive.

    At very least, I don't think it's as obvious as the Pirates are making it sound.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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  3. #2
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    Re: Pirates file protest

    If Bud wouldn't overturn a no-hitter that was incorrectly called on the last play of the game, I seriously doubt he's going to overturn this. Especially with the Pirates being in the race with the Brewers.

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    We Need Our Myths reds1869's Avatar
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    Re: Pirates file protest

    MLB has stated that the call was missed; it says as much in the article you linked to. MLB absolutely, positively needs to come into the 21st--heck, the 20th--Century and adopt instant replay on a wider scale. The arguments about "the human element" and "slowing down the game" are tired. On most issues I'm something of a purist, but this is not one of them. We need to make use of the technology at our disposal. If Pittsburgh misses the playoffs by one game it will leave a bitter taste.

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    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Pirates file protest

    Quote Originally Posted by reds1869 View Post
    MLB has stated that the call was missed; it says as much in the article you linked to. MLB absolutely, positively needs to come into the 21st--heck, the 20th--Century and adopt instant replay on a wider scale. The arguments about "the human element" and "slowing down the game" are tired. On most issues I'm something of a purist, but this is not one of them. We need to make use of the technology at our disposal. If Pittsburgh misses the playoffs by one game it will leave a bitter taste.
    I would like to see what they're basing that position off of. Again, I watched that replay half a dozen times and I cannot for the life of me come to any definitive conclusion.

    If a replay can be seen by millions and be torn as to whether something did or did not occur, then the umpire didn't make a terrible call.

    Put it this way: if we had replay and the NFL standard of 'convincing evidence' were used, I don't think that call should be overturned.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Pirates file protest

    The ump blew the call. If the mitt is down and it reasonably looks like the tag was made then you bang it out. On a play like that you don't get ticky tacky about whether the tag was missed by an inch or two .

    The ump knew he blew it and I can tell by his partners body language they knew he blew it to.

    After 19 innings I think the ump was ready to go home.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

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    Re: Pirates file protest

    http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/7/27/22...re-jerry-meals

    I'm sorry, but I still have not seen a conclusive replay. I've read a lot of Tweets from people claiming the replays or screen-captures are conclusive, but I'm looking at the same things and I'm just not seeing it. I'm not seeing a for sure in any of them.

    Yes, the throw beat Lugo by 10 feet and that's usually an automatic out. And hey, don't we get pissed off at umpires who assume outs, just because the throw's there in plenty of time? I do.

    It might not be likely, but it's possible that Jerry Meals saw something, something real, that none of the cameras were able to see. If there was an eighth of an inch between Michael McKenry's mitt and Julio Lugo's pants, would the cameras have caught that gap? Not from what I've been able to tell; none of the cameras were placed in just the right place to see that gap, if there was one.

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    Re: Pirates file protest

    I think the wrong call was made, but I'm not 100% certain. I can't see the tag for sure.

    The protest is a waste of time even if the replay definitively shows he was tagged a thousand times.

  9. #8
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Pirates file protest

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    The ump blew the call. If the mitt is down and it reasonably looks like the tag was made then you bang it out. On a play like that you don't get ticky tacky about whether the tag was missed by an inch or two .

    The ump knew he blew it and I can tell by his partners body language they knew he blew it to.

    I think the ump was ready to go home.
    Respectfully George, I disagree wholeheartedly. The very first thing I learned when I started umpiring: don't assume anything. If you don't see the tag, then you can't call someone out.

    Also... how the umpire reacted is irrelevant. You know as well as anyone that sometimes you start replaying a play over in your mind. It doesn't mean that you missed it, but it's easy to question yourself, especially on a close call.

    It does matter if he missed by an inch or two. Because if he did, the runner is safe and should be called safe.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    We Need Our Myths reds1869's Avatar
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    Re: Pirates file protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    I would like to see what they're basing that position off of. Again, I watched that replay half a dozen times and I cannot for the life of me come to any definitive conclusion.

    If a replay can be seen by millions and be torn as to whether something did or did not occur, then the umpire didn't make a terrible call.

    Put it this way: if we had replay and the NFL standard of 'convincing evidence' were used, I don't think that call should be overturned.
    Angles can play tricks, but this one looks pretty conclusive. At worst the throw beat the runner by so much that 99% of the time the call will be an out.


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    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Pirates file protest

    Quote Originally Posted by reds1869 View Post
    Angles can play tricks, but this one looks pretty conclusive. At worst the throw beat the runner by so much that 99% of the time the call will be an out.

    I don't think that's conclusive. It appears a tag was made. But appearing to be made and being conclusive... well there's a bridge between the two and I don't think we've crossed it
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Pirates file protest

    Instant replay is needed badly. Even if this wouldn't have been overturned it still should be a play that is reviewed.

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    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Pirates file protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    Respectfully George, I disagree wholeheartedly. The very first thing I learned when I started umpiring: don't assume anything. If you don't see the tag, then you can't call someone out.

    Also... how the umpire reacted is irrelevant. You know as well as anyone that sometimes you start replaying a play over in your mind. It doesn't mean that you missed it, but it's easy to question yourself, especially on a close call.

    It does matter if he missed by an inch or two. Because if he did, the runner is safe and should be called safe.
    The umpire is not going to see if a catcher missed the runner by an inch or so. The play is moving way to fast to notice if the tag was missed by an inch. In that situation where the runner is out by ten feet and unless it is painfully obvious the tag was missed you give the benefit of the doubt to the fielder and bang em out.

    How the umpire reacted is just my gut on his body language. I have seen enough umpires miss calls and from my perspective he knew he missed the call. If he was positive he made the right call he would not of looked so meek. His partners had their heads down to with a look like they were somewhat embarrased on the call. Just my gut feeling though on their body language.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

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    Re: Pirates file protest

    The guy was out. That is an easy call.

    The worst feeling in sports is knowing you lost a game on a blown call. It alienates fans and costs the league money. If the league has the technological ability to fix these mistakes they should do it.

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    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Pirates file protest

    Brutus, no way Joe Torre and the umpire himself come out today and say "The call was blown" if the right call was made. Baseball loves to protect their umpires. So, even if there was a chance the umpire was right, no way Torre would have come out and made the statement he did. Obviously MLB saw some camera angles (or pictures) that proved Lugo was tagged by McKenry. Otherwise, no way they would come out and basically throw one of their umpires under the bus.

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    Re: Pirates file protest

    I was going to start a thread on this earlier, when I saw that the Pirates filed some kind of paperwork. It wasn't an official protest, and even the Pirates GM (or president or whoever) that was quoted in the Yahoo version of the article I read didn't seem to exactly know why he was filing it, because he knew the ump was trying to get the call right and that nothing would be over-turned.

    So what, exactly, was the point of filing the complaint? So that everybody would quit enjoying your feel good story of underdoggery because you're now going out of your way to be complainers?

    So that part of the story confused me, and I'm curious to know what others think the Pirates are hoping to accomplish here. What doesn't confuse me is the fact that the guy was out and the ump blew the call. If you're on the other side of the debate ("it certainly looks like he was tagged, and the circumstantial evidence of the runner acting like he was tagged until the ump called him safe also points to the tag being made, but looks can be deceiving and I see no ironclad evidence"), would it be fair to say the guy was "safe" in the same way Casey Anthony was "innocent"?

    If so, I'll respectfully disagree, as there is a difference between finding a reason to doubt, and having reasonable doubt....


    Rick


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