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Thread: 2011 Bengals Discussion

  1. #676
    Kmac5 KoryMac5's Avatar
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    Re: 2011 Bengals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    Again, it's largely not guaranteed.
    Either party is allowed to get out when they want to.
    Missed the point. The point is Carson had his deal reworked in 2005, the reworked deal kept him with a terrible employer until 2014. He could have walked then but he chose to take a 15 million dollar bonus from this employer to stay. It's not like he didn't know what he was signing on for because he had been with the team for 2 years. My point is why sign the extension, if you don't like the employer? I guess Carson had 15 million reasons to stay.

    I for one am glad Oakland was crazy enough to give 2 high picks for this guy as well as take on that contract. Bengals are set up nicely for the next 4 yrs or so.
    Last edited by KoryMac5; 10-19-2011 at 12:39 PM.
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  3. #677
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    Re: 2011 Bengals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRed View Post
    Every mock I've seen so far has Cliff Harris as a second rounder. One mock I read had the Bengals taking Harris in the second and a first round CB from South Carolina who's name escapes me at the moment.

    Would anybody rule out the Bengals taking Janoris Jenkins in the first round? That seems like a good way to kick the gift horse in the mouth.
    That would be Stephon Gilmore. He's a great player, converted quarterback, with all the speed and size that you want out of a CB, but he's prone to getting burned and he doesn't have the killer instinct of a truly good CB. Time will make him good, but as of now I wouldn't take him in the first (this is coming from a South Carolina fan).

  4. #678
    Kmac5 KoryMac5's Avatar
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    Re: 2011 Bengals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Gack View Post
    The fact that people still go to Bengals games and pay Mike Brown money is astounding. The fact that there's a thread here discussing the Bengals and there are fans shows how brilliant of a man Mike Brown is.
    It's not Mike Brown being brillant, it is the draw of the NFL. People want the NFL experience. Shows you just how popular the sport has become these days that people will pay money to see it no matter how good your teams product is.
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  5. #679
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    Re: 2011 Bengals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by The Operator View Post
    That's a problem they should take up in CBA negotiations. They know full well when signing a contract that they can be dropped, and at the same time they can also be held to it in its entirety. If they don't like that they should have the union force a change. But as of now, them's the rules. Carson knew it when he signed the contract. I don't care that he got buyer's remorse.
    Most of these super-long contracts are accounting fictions, meant to spread the signing bonus salary-cap hit over more seasons. Neither side really expects such a deal to be played out, because one side or the other is eventually going to have a problem with it, and they both have means at their disposal to get out of it. The team can cut the player or force him to renegotiate if they think he's overpaid or no longer useful, and all that future salary evaporates. The player can hold out if he feels underpaid or wants to force a trade. Doesn't mean he'll get what he wants, but he's free to try it as long as he doesn't mind not getting paid in the meantime. Those are the real rules as understood in the NFL.
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  6. #680
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: 2011 Bengals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by KoryMac5 View Post
    Missed the point. The point is Carson had his deal reworked in 2005, the reworked deal kept him with a terrible employer until 2014. He could have walked then but he chose to take a 15 million dollar bonus from this employer to stay. It's not like he didn't know what he was signing on for because he had been with the team for 2 years. My point is why sign the extension, if you don't like the employer? I guess Carson had 15 million reasons to stay.

    I for one am glad Oakland was crazy enough to give 2 high picks for this guy as well as take on that contract. Bengals are set up nicely for the next 4 yrs or so.
    No, I didn't miss the point.

    The reworked deal could be broken out of by either party at any time.
    $15M bonus for a QB is not that much and reasonable for the amount of time he played with the team.

    He presumably signed the extension because he wasn't tired of the antics at that point. Things have gotten progressively worse during his tenure, and I can understand how he could grow to become frustrated over time.

  7. #681
    Kmac5 KoryMac5's Avatar
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    Re: 2011 Bengals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    No, I didn't miss the point.

    The reworked deal could be broken out of by either party at any time.
    $15M bonus for a QB is not that much and reasonable for the amount of time he played with the team.

    He presumably signed the extension because he wasn't tired of the antics at that point. Things have gotten progressively worse during his tenure, and I can understand how he could grow to become frustrated over time.
    In the words of Chris Carter, Awe C'mon Man. Bit of a stretch especially since Palmer ain't talking and won't talk. We don't know what his problem was or who he had the problem with. Could be his wife wanted to be closer to family. Could be he didn't want to rebuild again. It's all speculation.

    Every player in the league knows the Bengals are NFL exile, a place where good players go to die. I just don't see where things got so much worse from 2005 till 2010 that it would make a man quit. Especially when you sprinkle in two trips to the playoffs as well as Mike opening up his wallet to sign players Carson openly lobbied for.
    If you have a losing record at Reds games, please stop going.

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    Re: 2011 Bengals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by remdog View Post
    Good for Carson. Class guy as opposed to lil' Mikey. Who called who's bluff? It think Carson called Mike's bluff and Mikey blicked. Carson didn't need to deal with an idiot and got tired of it. Mikey finally picked up on the idea that he had to expend a draft pick for another quarterback and there was nothing coming back to him. As usual, Mikey looked at the cost factor and, finally, the light bulb came on that he was the loser in the deal. Don't congratulate Mikey, congratulate Carson.

    Of course, the caveat is that the Bengals actually do something positive with the draft picks, which, honestly, I'm not confident will happen.

    I hope Carson comes in here next year and kicks the Bengals' (read Mike Brown) butt.

    Rem
    What? Mikey still had a team and income to ply his trade (cards in his hand and won). Carson had no team and no income (won part of the pot with a bluff). The only one in this game here who really didn't have anything but a losing hand is Oakland, who will have a hard time showing a winning hand out of this deal.
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  9. #683
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    Re: 2011 Bengals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    No, I didn't miss the point.

    The reworked deal could be broken out of by either party at any time.
    $15M bonus for a QB is not that much and reasonable for the amount of time he played with the team.

    He presumably signed the extension because he wasn't tired of the antics at that point. Things have gotten progressively worse during his tenure, and I can understand how he could grow to become frustrated over time.
    That's not entirely true, though. Players have no recourse to get out of a contract unless they simply retire or have an option to get out of it. While the contracts aren't guaranteed for the players, they're guaranteed for the owners. The owners have a player's rights as long as the contract is in existence.

    Teams can cut players but players can't cut teams.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  10. #684
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: 2011 Bengals Discussion

    I also think it would be safer to say "Bengals management" rather than attribute these good football moves suddenly showing up for the Bengals to Mikey.
    Can't win with 'em

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  11. #685
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    Re: 2011 Bengals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg View Post
    There is simply no way anyone can spin this trade as a win for Oakland.

    None.
    "Win" is a stretch, but there's a lot to like about this from Oakland's POV -- they've got a team that's loaded with speed and weapons on offense. Heyward-Bey is finally starting to look like a legit WR, Jacoby Ford is a threat to score every time he gets the ball in his hands, and you've got Run-DMC who combines the straight-line speed of a Chris Johnson with the hands of Ray Rice. Their offensive line is extremely solid as well.

    There's ENORMOUS upside potential for the Raiders with Carson Palmer if he's healthy and can get into game shape quickly.

    The Raiders may have overpaid a bit, but we're talking about a franchise that needed a QB to take the proverbial "next step" (the last quality QB they had in that city was Rich Gannon almost a decade ago) before Campbell got hurt and now needed someone who could step in and keep a successful season going.

    I'm pulling for Palmer a lot on this one. The Raiders are already a fun team to watch, but if Palmer can recapture a little of the magic that seemed to leave as he spent time in Cincinnati, they could be really dangerous.
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  12. #686
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    Re: 2011 Bengals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRed View Post
    Every mock I've seen so far has Cliff Harris as a second rounder.
    We desperately need a play maker on defense, and Harris is that guy. He was a projected Top 10 pick before he fell off Kiper's board for a suspension.

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRed View Post
    One mock I read had the Bengals taking Harris in the second and a first round CB from South Carolina who's name escapes me at the moment.
    Stephon Gilmore. I've never been impressed with him. He's inconsistent, and he forgets how to cover people. He'll pile up a lot of tackles against the run, but I don't want that. I want a guy who can create turnovers.

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRed View Post
    Would anybody rule out the Bengals taking Janoris Jenkins in the first round? That seems like a good way to kick the gift horse in the mouth.
    Jenkins is nice, but the Bengals could just wait until the 2nd round. I seriously doubt anyone will want to spend their 1st pick on him, but who knows.

  13. #687
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: 2011 Bengals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    Again, it's largely not guaranteed.
    Either party is allowed to get out when they want to.
    That's not correct. Palmer couldn't get out when he wanted to. He was commited to the Bengals for 4 more years unless they traded his contract to another team. What gave you the idea that Palmer could get out whenever he wanted? If you know of a way then you ought to be his agent

  14. #688
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: 2011 Bengals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    That's not correct. Palmer couldn't get out when he wanted to. He was commited to the Bengals for 4 more years unless they traded his contract to another team. What gave you the idea that Palmer could get out whenever he wanted? If you know of a way then you ought to be his agent
    The fact that he did by retiring? he doesnt have to play if he doesnt want to.

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    Re: 2011 Bengals Discussion

    I don't really have a problem with the owners being able to get out of contracts. The business model in the NFL works more than any other professional sport. It's not groundbreaking for an employer to have more power than the employee or anything.

  16. #690
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: 2011 Bengals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Gack View Post
    The fact that people still go to Bengals games and pay Mike Brown money is astounding. The fact that there's a thread here discussing the Bengals and there are fans shows how brilliant of a man Mike Brown is.
    Do you or would you go to Reds games? They've been no better since Marvin Lewis was hired. They've actually probably been worse.

    I'm not a Mike Brown fan, but they've been a pretty average team the last 8-9 years. If Carson hadn't gotten hurt they'd have been above average more than likely.
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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