I'm not going to be upset if the Reds don't make any major deals. I'd rather see how the team plays when a healthy Cozart comes back, and with a Heisey/Alonso platoon in LF.
Move Chapman into the rotation, and the Reds have their TOR starter.
I think I throw the ball as hard as anyone. The ball just doesn't get there as fast. Eddie Bane
We know we're better than this ... but we can't prove it. Tony Gwynn
So between this thread, and this thread
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90725
Sooooo, I'd say many Redszoners were wrong. Not even counting yet another terrible performance tonight (which is how I remembered this discussion) Jimenez has given Cleveland 37 starts of a 5.43 ERA with a 1.573 WHIP, good for a -1.1 WAR. Good job by Walt to not do this deal and instead get us Latos in the winter.
I dont care, Votto said of passing his friend and former teammate. Hes in the past. Bye-bye, Jay.
Funny you should bring this up, I was just thinking earlier how glad I am the Reds didn't unload the farm for Ubaldo. Walt acquired the right guy in Mat Latos.
Guilty as charged. In fairness, though, my issue wasn't just whether they got Jiminez but whether they went out and got a frontline starter in general. I'm glad the Reds invested their resources in Latos instead of Jiminez in hindsight. It's not even remotely a debate as to who got the better of that turn of events between the Indians and Reds. My frustration was not necessarily with not getting Jiminez, as much as not letting prospects get in the way of acquiring a pitcher. My first preference last summer was Shields, followed by Jiminez (Latos would have been ahead of Ubaldo for me but he really wasn't on the radar). Turns out they went out and used those prospects on Latos, which I'm thrilled about.
As far as Ubaldo, the velocity has taken another nosedive but while he's still missing some bats, the big problem is that his command is awful. He's getting the ball up in the zone (when he can even find it), and he's no longer the groundball pitcher he once was.
Last edited by Brutus; 09-01-2012 at 01:38 AM.
"No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda
I'm not sure who the Reds had that would have given them a chance to acquire Pomeranz, especially if the Reds wanted to contend this season. Pomeranz definitely would not be a guy helping the Reds to win a pennant this year, although I don't disagree with you on his long-term prospects.
The Reds needed a guy with a proven track record. Fortunately they found one.
"No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda
Every Reds fan who's riding on the Aroldis Chapman cloud should take a look at the demise of Jimenez. I was here to witness his three-month meteoric rise from a guy who was already pretty good to a guy throwing 99 mph start after start and putting it right where he wanted to. It was amazing. Then, just like Kaiser Sosay... poof. He was gone. Some other guy started wearing his uniform.
Stick to your guns.
I'm not sure how there's any comparison. For starters, Ubaldo never averaged 99. The highest his fastball ever averaged in a season was 96.1. Chapman averaged 99 in 2010 and just shy of 98 the past two seasons. But secondly, what happened with Jimenez is the exception more than the rule. Very rarely do guys lose six MPH on their fastball in the course of three seasons.
"No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda
Brutus: i may be misunderstanding your post, but pitchers lose velocity on their fastball all the time. I would venture that what's happened to Jimenez is the rule. It's the first thing that goes south for all pitchers. Losing that velocity over time is the reason that a pitcher like Bronson will slowly over time have to leave the league- his fb doesn't look that much different than the rest of his pitches and he ends up striking out 4 per 9 innings rather than 6.
I also believe Jimenez is a good comp relative to physical stature. My guess is they would look more a like in similiar roles - make the adjustment - If Jimenez is a reliever he would gain some velocity on his fb.
A mile per hour or two? Sure. That's not uncommon. But you'd be hard-pressed to show that it's common for a pitcher to lose 4-6 MPH off his fastball in a couple of seasons. That's not normal.
You used Bronson as an example. He's lost 1 MPH over the course of his entire career on average, according to Fangraphs. He hasn't really lost much velocity.
It's not normal for a guy to lose 4-6 MPH in 2-3 years time. That's not at all the rule.
"No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda
It's not the rule because when it happens the guy has to leave the league and they stop measuring it when said pitcher leaves the league. John Rocker threw 96 mph when he was at the top of his game. When he had arm problems he went to winter ball to work it out and the highest he could throw was 88 mph. But the data wasn't there to show that because he wasn't in the league anymore.
They don't gather the data on guys that can no longer pitch in the league. You're looking at data points and assuming that's all the information there is. An effect can still take place but be outside the measured data points. Pitchers lose 6 mph in 3 years all the time.
Yet there are power guys who have long, productive careers also. I'm not sure I get the correlation between "Jimenez has lost it" and "Chapman is lights out now, but beware, he might lose it tomorrow." Sure, he might pop an elbow tendon, or blow out his shoulder, or get wild, fall in love and lose his committment, or other things. But to use Jimenez as a "take heed" example, that is just faulty logic.
"Rounding 3rd and heading for home, good night everybody"
If it happens so often, why are you using a guy that last pitched almost 10 years ago as an example?
Show where all these pitchers are that lose 6 mph in 3 years "all the time." Where are they all? If it is the "rule" then you should have no problem looking up dozens and dozens of examples in the last 10 years alone. After all, there are hundreds of active pitchers in any given year, so if it's the rule and not the exception, then you should have a list that's overflowing with examples, yes?
"No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda
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