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Thread: Jose Bautista: Clean or PED User?

  1. #1
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Jose Bautista: Clean or PED User?

    Would Bautista be able to purchase the same PEDs in Cincinnati that he is currently using in Toronto? That would be a big factor in the deal, I would think.
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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone would have exploded: Votto for Bautista

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool View Post
    Would Bautista be able to purchase the same PEDs in Cincinnati that he is currently using in Toronto? That would be a big factor in the deal, I would think.
    So you have proof that he is doing so?

    Sorry, but simply because a guy gets really good out of nowhere doesn't mean he is cheating. There is absolutely NOTHING out there that links him to anything of the sort other than people thinking he has to be.

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    Member Strikes Out Looking's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone would have exploded: Votto for Bautista

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    So you have proof that he is doing so?

    Sorry, but simply because a guy gets really good out of nowhere doesn't mean he is cheating. There is absolutely NOTHING out there that links him to anything of the sort other than people thinking he has to be.
    As someone who usually believes certain players are doing illegal things, my PEDar doesn't go off with Bautista.
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    Re: RedsZone would have exploded: Votto for Bautista

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    So you have proof that he is doing so?

    Sorry, but simply because a guy gets really good out of nowhere doesn't mean he is cheating. There is absolutely NOTHING out there that links him to anything of the sort other than people thinking he has to be.
    This x100. Trying to accuse players with no hint of evidence outside of stats is the worst kind of speculation.

  6. #5
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone would have exploded: Votto for Bautista

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    This x100. Trying to accuse players with no hint of evidence outside of stats is the worst kind of speculation.
    Guys at 29 years old don't naturally go from hitting homers in 2.8% of their plate appearances to 8% of their plate appearances and boost slugging from .410 for their career to over .630.

    That's probably not natural. We saw this a lot in the PED era, and for a long time, people assumed the best and that it was unfair to speculate. As it turns out, it was perfectly fair to speculate because if it walked like a duck, quacked like a duck... it was probably a duck. And further, it wound up being a duck, usually.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone would have exploded: Votto for Bautista

    Thing is -- even if he is using (which I doubt, at this point) he obviously has found a way to do it without getting caught. So, any risk of drop-off in production is probably negligible.
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    Re: RedsZone would have exploded: Votto for Bautista

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    Guys at 29 years old don't naturally go from hitting homers in 2.8% of their plate appearances to 8% of their plate appearances and boost slugging from .410 for their career to over .630.

    That's probably not natural. We saw this a lot in the PED era, and for a long time, people assumed the best and that it was unfair to speculate. As it turns out, it was perfectly fair to speculate because if it walked like a duck, quacked like a duck... it was probably a duck. And further, it wound up being a duck, usually.
    I'm not up for another extended argument about this topic. If he doesn't look any stronger than he did four years ago, what exactly are these steroids doing to his body?

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    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone would have exploded: Votto for Bautista

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    I'm not up for another extended argument about this topic. If he doesn't look any stronger than he did four years ago, what exactly are these steroids doing to his body?
    There is a lot more to power than 'looking' stronger or being overly muscular. Power is about hand-eye coordination, bat speed, energy, being sharp (and not fatigued), feeling healthy as well as bone density and muscle mass.

    Any number of these factors in total could trigger a dramatic increase in production. But these things don't typically happen naturally at 29 out of the blue.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    KungFu Fighter AtomicDumpling's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone would have exploded: Votto for Bautista

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    Guys at 29 years old don't naturally go from hitting homers in 2.8% of their plate appearances to 8% of their plate appearances and boost slugging from .410 for their career to over .630.

    That's probably not natural. We saw this a lot in the PED era, and for a long time, people assumed the best and that it was unfair to speculate. As it turns out, it was perfectly fair to speculate because if it walked like a duck, quacked like a duck... it was probably a duck. And further, it wound up being a duck, usually.
    It has been well-documented that he drastically changed his approach at the plate before last season and it paid off tremendously. Bautista doesn't have the physical appearance of a PEDs user, nor did he suddenly bulk up or improve his strength and athleticism between 2009 and 2010. So I think it is inappropriate to suggest he has been cheating.

  11. #10
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone would have exploded: Votto for Bautista

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling View Post
    It has been well-documented that he drastically changed his approach at the plate before last season and it paid off tremendously. Bautista doesn't have the physical appearance of a PEDs user, nor did he suddenly bulk up or improve his strength between 2009 and 2010. So I think it is inappropriate to suggest he has been cheating.
    HGH by all accounts would not have the same appearance that pure anabolic steroids would.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Member Superdude's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone would have exploded: Votto for Bautista

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    There is a lot more to power than 'looking' stronger or being overly muscular. Power is about hand-eye coordination, bat speed, energy, being sharp (and not fatigued), feeling healthy as well as bone density and muscle mass.

    Any number of these factors in total could trigger a dramatic increase in production. But these things don't typically happen naturally at 29 out of the blue.
    I understand there's secondary benefits, such as energy, but I refuse to believe that anything beyond marginal improvement can be achieved without making the obvious increase in muscular strength. Feeling peppy in August didn't make Bautista a 50 homerun hitter.

  13. #12
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone would have exploded: Votto for Bautista

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    HGH by all accounts would not have the same appearance that pure anabolic steroids would.
    Forget the huge supposition that Bautista is actually using HGH, the notion that HGH is an effective PED to begin with is highly controversial.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone would have exploded: Votto for Bautista

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Forget the huge supposition that Bautista is actually using HGH, the notion that HGH is an effective PED to begin with is highly controversial.
    No it's really not. But your position is that an anti-doping agent, who's job it is to downplay steroids and performance-enhancing drugs, would be outwardly honest about whether or not it's a drug that would impact performance. So there's no sense in having that debate.

    After all, ask yourself: if the anti-doping establishment governing olympic and amateur sports didn't find HGH to help performance, why is it banned?
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  15. #14
    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone would have exploded: Votto for Bautista

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    No it's really not. But your position is that an anti-doping agent, who's job it is to downplay steroids and performance-enhancing drugs, would be outwardly honest about whether or not it's a drug that would impact performance. So there's no sense in having that debate.

    After all, ask yourself: if the anti-doping establishment governing olympic and amateur sports didn't find HGH to help performance, why is it banned?
    My position is pretty simple.....side with science and the science doesn't support your claims.

    Why arent Olympic athletes allowed to use HGH? Because the governing body doesn't want 8 year old Chinese gymnasts being given them.... again this debate has been had and your assertion that HGH is a PED for adult baseball players is not supported by the science.
    Last edited by jojo; 08-01-2011 at 07:19 PM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  16. #15
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone would have exploded: Votto for Bautista

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    My position is pretty simple.....side with science and the science doesn't support your claims.

    Why arent Olympic athletes allowed to use HGH? Because the governing body doesn't want 8 year old Chinese gymnasts being given them.... again this debate has been had and your assertion that HGH is a PED for adult baseball players is not supported by the science.
    Science does, you just are picking and choosing which science you want to be evidence of support.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda


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