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Thread: Myths

  1. #1
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Myths

    Myth 1

    --Dusty Baker has vet love. He prefers vets to kids and stunts development...

    Facts, When Dusty has had talented kids, He's played them. He just really hasn't had that many talented kids in his career as a manager. He's managed teams with significant payrolls and resources to get free agents. Does he move as fast as I'd like in evaluating young players? probably not, but IMO his long term view of players and clubhouse chemistry is spot on.

    Myth 2

    --Walt Jocketty's ability as a GM is the reason his teams have been so successful.

    errrr. ummm... hard to prove or disprove. The success of his teams seems more tied to Dave Duncan than anyone else. I mean Kyle freaking Lohse has a 3.45 ERA right now with a 1.14 WHIP. That is ALL Duncan. If Jocketty were somehow to bring LaGenius and Duncan to Cincinnati, IMO the pitching would improve so much that the Reds could with the division. offensively, they match up well with the Cards and Brewers.

    Walt's best deals are when he spots an inequity. McGuire, Edmonds etc. He hasn't seen one in his tenure in Cincinnati. The Reds COULD have gotten Cliff Lee last year, but that would have been a 1 year rental. They possibly could have topped the Phillies for Roy Halladay. Perhaps they could have overpaid for Werth.

    Tough to say either way. I do believe he prefers established players to youth, but that he's never had a farm as stacked as the Reds is right now.

    Myth 3

    --Bronson Arroyo is untradeable.

    huge myth. It just depends on what the Reds need. Is it an influx of talent or salary relief or roster flexibility. I think you could put him on waivers today and he'd be claimed. Very likely by the Yankees, just to pitch him against the Red Sox.

    But the Reds would have to commit to certain roster desgnations, something i don't think Walt is capable of. I think trading Haren made him want to hoard pitchers and Ankiel flaming out has made him gunshy when it comes to promoting them.

    Myth 4

    --Joey Votto is a headcase/doesn't want to stay in Cincinnati

    The truth is simpler... Walt gave him the very best contract he could get. It made Votto rich without locking him up long term. It was a show of good faith on Jocketty's part, but it was a huge risk. It allows the Reds the option to offer him arbitration (i think) and get the pick. I think Votto just wants to win. If the opportunity to do so is in Toronto, then that is where he will be.

    I'm sure there are more myths, many purported by this messageboard. Some won't agree with me that these are myths. That's ok. but haven't we gotten tired of the same stories beaten to death?
    Suck it up cupcake.

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  3. #2
    We Need Our Myths reds1869's Avatar
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    Re: Myths

    My favorite myth is that the Reds were founded in 1869. I like it so much that I immortalize it in my user name.

    I largely agree with your post, though I think it is fair to say that Bronson is virtually untradeable. It is my understanding the Reds would have to pay out his deferred salary as soon as they trade him; that would be a tough pill to swallow.

  4. #3
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Myths

    Quote Originally Posted by reds1869 View Post
    My favorite myth is that the Reds were founded in 1869. I like it so much that I immortalize it in my user name.
    Yep, oldest team in the NL... if you don't count Atlanta, Chicago, LA, San Francisco and Philadelphia.

  5. #4
    I'm gettin paper Homer Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Myths

    If Arroyo is traded, his deferred payments are paid straight up. Not to mention that he will soon have 10 and 5.

  6. #5
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Myths

    Bronson is definitely untradeable.

    His salary would be hard enough to move as is, but when $15 million in deferred payments become payable as normal salary if he's traded, that means he'd have to be paid over $13 million per year.

    No one will pay that.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  7. #6
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Myths

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Yep, oldest team in the NL... if you don't count Atlanta, Chicago, LA, San Francisco and Philadelphia.
    One could make an easy case that those 1869 Red Stockings are now the Atlanta Braves.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinn...2.80.931889.29

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_Braves#History
    Last edited by Always Red; 08-09-2011 at 06:17 PM.

  8. #7
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Myths

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus the Pimp View Post
    Bronson is definitely untradeable.

    His salary would be hard enough to move as is, but when $15 million in deferred payments become payable as normal salary if he's traded, that means he'd have to be paid over $13 million per year.

    No one will pay that.
    If Hank Steinbrenner thought getting Arroyo makes the Yankees AL champs over Boston... In a heartbeat. Cashman might have a stroke in the process, but he's be overruled.

    Also, does that apply if he's waived or just traded?
    Suck it up cupcake.

  9. #8
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Myths

    Quote Originally Posted by Always Red View Post
    One could make an easy case that those 1869 Red Stockings are now the Atlanta Braves.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinn...2.80.931889.29

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_Braves#History
    They could, but then I could also say the 1887 Detroit Wolverines were the Buffalo Bisons too because of the “The Big Four” they acquired.

    It's debate worthy but the ownership group changed and that's a linchpin.

  10. #9
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Myths

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    If Hank Steinbrenner thought getting Arroyo makes the Yankees AL champs over Boston... In a heartbeat. Cashman might have a stroke in the process, but he's be overruled.

    Also, does that apply if he's waived or just traded?
    It applies if he's assigned in any capacity -- waivers, traded, etc.

    I am not saying the money alone would make him untradeable, but he's not a pitcher that's good enough to precipitate any team taking on that salary. Any pitcher making $13 million would have to be a bonafide ace to be traded for. Short of the Reds picking up most of that salary, there simply isn't any way a team would have interest in Arroyo.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Myths

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Yep, oldest team in the NL... if you don't count Atlanta, Chicago, LA, San Francisco and Philadelphia.
    I belive it is stated that they are the oldest professional team in baseball.

    Not oldest team.

  12. #11
    BobC, get a legit F.O.! Mario-Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: Myths

    Lord knows I agree with ya on the Walt thing, it's always been my point of view. He is a good GM because he is everything an owner/manager wants in a GM except for the talent evaluation part IMO. He kind of allows his manager to construct the team in theory and then goes gets what his manager wants/needs.

    Arroyo, yeah I'd probably agree that basically any player is tradeable. Pretty much agree with your view of Votto as well.

    Dusty OTOH I disagree with in a sense. Dusty prefers a known commodity over the unknown (to him). Established (over the hill or not) Vet over up and coming young vet, both over youngster (no matter how good the youngster might be), youngster over more experienced youngster etc. Prefers experience over talent.

    ON the Reds and 1869, why would Reds fans of all people have a problem with it if no one else seems to care? The Cincy club was the 1st and we are the current Cincy club, good enough for me.
    "You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

    --Woody Hayes

  13. #12
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Myths

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    I belive it is stated that they are the oldest professional team in baseball.

    Not oldest team.
    Then that's wrong too, they have zero connection to the 1869 team, they didn't even have a team for a few years.

    First professional team... yes.

    Anything else is a myth.

  14. #13
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Myths

    There is nothing wrong with being tied for the 5th oldest team in the league, never understood the 'spiritual' bit to claim the mythical oldest trophy.

    You don't see the Mets claiming the 1876 New York Mutuals as an ancestor.
    Go Gators!

  15. #14
    I hate the Cubs LoganBuck's Avatar
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    Re: Myths

    Browns fans ignore the fact that the Ravens won a Super Bowl. Deep down, I know it bugs them, but they just treat their existence like there was a short hiatus during the late nineties. Earnest Byner still haunts them today.

    Same thing for the Reds.
    The Sox traded Bullfrog the only player they've got for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

  16. #15
    Oy Vey! Red in Chicago's Avatar
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    Re: Myths

    Do those in Boston still look at the Braves as one of their own? Anyone really following them in Milwaukee? Franchises that move city to city bother me when they reference things from their past. I bet there aren't many in DC thinking how good Gary Carter was back in the day.


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