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Thread: Reds Front office Blaming attendance why they wont do anything this off season????

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    Reds Front office Blaming attendance why they wont do anything this off season????

    posted tonight on mlbtraderumors:

    The Reds have not seen a significant spike in attendance coming off last season's division title and will likely be relatively inactive this offseason.


    They cant be serious to think because of their poor play and 10 games OUT, thats going to entice fans to buy tickets??? that's such a SLAP in the face of Reds fans.. WINNING last years division has seen attendance grow.. 12 sellouts before they started failing at staying in the race doesnt mean anything??

    What a joke.. Please sell the team to Mark Cuban, BOB!!!!

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    Re: Reds Front office Blaming attendance why they wont do anything this off season???

    I don't think this is from the FO. Its just some speculation to spur traffic on the website.

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    Re: Reds Front office Blaming attendance why they wont do anything this off season???

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfansince72 View Post
    posted tonight on mlbtraderumors:

    The Reds have not seen a significant spike in attendance coming off last season's division title and will likely be relatively inactive this offseason.


    They cant be serious to think because of their poor play and 10 games OUT, thats going to entice fans to buy tickets??? that's such a SLAP in the face of Reds fans.. WINNING last years division has seen attendance grow.. 12 sellouts before they started failing at staying in the race doesnt mean anything??

    What a joke.. Please sell the team to Mark Cuban, BOB!!!!
    Attendance has been horrible for a team that is the defending central champions with the league MVP on it.

    The strange part in the attendance has been going upward since that team tanked.

    On July 18th they were 3.5 games back and drew 22,000

    Today they are 10 games out and had 31,000 people and 28,000 yesterday

    Before the tanking attendance was nothing but terrible, if being champs with an MVP does not help attendance why should the owner spend more money?


    1st half of the season minus the Yankees they averaged 24,647, the 2nd half the have averaged 30,017

    For the complete season they are averaging 27,997, last season it was 25,438.

    The Reds are at max salary for the attendance they get, and an extra 2559 people per game does not come close to paying for the 124 million they committed themselves to last offseason because they thought being central champs and have the MVP would be a giant boost to the attendance. Well it did not help much at all, why should the owner spend more money when more people do not show up, like I said he spent 124 million last offseason and saw no return on the investment, why invest even more?


    Reds average ticket price is $19 so the extra 2,559 people get the Reds $3,938,301
    Last edited by Krawhitham; 08-14-2011 at 03:15 AM.

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    Re: Reds Front office Blaming attendance why they wont do anything this off season???

    Attendance is horrible because they didn't do anything this past off season. If the FO would have made a significant upgrade to LF, SS, or a true #1 starter the Reds would be in the running for the playoffs this season and attendance would be great. This owner and FO don't seem to get it. After a central division championship they should have spent some money and keep this team competitive and they fans would have shown up in bunches. They just don't get it.

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    Re: Reds Front office Blaming attendance why they wont do anything this off season???

    Quote Originally Posted by Krawhitham View Post
    Attendance has been horrible for a team that is the defending central champions with the league MVP on it.

    The strange part in the attendance has been going upward since that team tanked.

    On July 18th they were 3.5 games back and drew 22,000

    Today they are 10 games out and had 31,000 people and 28,000 yesterday

    Before the tanking attendance was nothing but terrible, if being champs with an MVP does not help attendance why should the owner spend more money?


    1st half of the season minus the Yankees they averaged 24,647, the 2nd half the have averaged 30,017

    For the complete season they are averaging 27,997, last season it was 25,438.

    The Reds are at max salary for the attendance they get, and an extra 2559 people per game does not come close to paying for the 124 million they committed themselves to last offseason because they thought being central champs and have the MVP would be a giant boost to the attendance. Well it did not help much at all, why should the owner spend more money when more people do not show up, like I said he spent 124 million last offseason and saw no return on the investment, why invest even more?


    Reds average ticket price is $19 so the extra 2,559 people get the Reds $3,938,301
    Not sure where you came up with that, but the Reds played at pittsburgh on july 18. July 17th was a sunday afternoon home game that drew 24,841.

    Also, saying the front office "spent 124 million in the offseason" is a bit deceptive. They're not paying 124 million this year. Thats including future years salaries bc guys like bruce and votto got extensions . The payroll for 2011 is 75,947,134 http://content.usatoday.com/sportsda.../salaries/team.


    As far as why attendence has increased throughout the season, Id imagine a lot of that has to do with the the first part of the season being played in march/april/may with kids in school and weather not as nice. Intuitively I think June-Aug should always have higher attendance barring the team being one of the worst in baseball (as frustrating as this team has been, theyre no where near that), but Im not sure if that is how its worked out in years past or not.


    Also, If the FO really expected some massive gain in attendance I think they were probably kidding themselves. Cincinnati is not a baseball town despite what a lot of reds fans like to say. In my small sample size with individuals I know in the critical 18-35 age demographic its just not that high on the list of things they're interested in. And its not surprising given overall how terrible the Reds product was for the majority of those individuals lives.

    I think the attendance spike this year is still a positive sign for the future years, and when looking at attendance for the past 40 years this shouldnt come as some major surprise to anyone. The most similar comparison I could find was the 1971 reds season. From 1941 to 1969 the reds won 1 division title in 1961. In 1970 the reds won their division and had the NL MVP in Johnny Bench (and even advanced further than the 2010 reds making the world series before falling). The 1971 reds had a poor season finishing 79-83, pretty similar to this 2011 team. That 1971 team drew a whopping 1,501,112 people and averaged less than 19,000 a game. This Reds team this year has already outdrawn them for the whole year. 1970 was also the first year of Riverfront stadium, so adding in a still relatively new ballpark for the 1971 season makes it even worse how bad attendance was for 71. If the FO is that unhappy with attendance, they need to open their eyes to the realities of attendance in the Cincinnati market and realize that the attendance ceiling for this city is no where near averaging 40,000 people a night. The 76 reds didnt even draw 35,000 a night. And yes I know, different era and the argument that attendance totals "should not" stay the same, but when you factor in that almost every game is now on television and peoples entertainment options for disposable income have multiplied by an exponential number since the 1970s I think its a wash at best.

    Heres a look back at the Reds historical attendance numbers.




    yearly attendance totals rounded. Just took exact average of rounded #
    *= divsion winner
    ** WS champs

    *1970 1.8 mill 22,222 pergame
    1971 1.5 mill ~18,518
    *1972 1.6 mill 19,754
    *1973 2.0 mill 24,691
    1974 2.2 mill 27,160
    **1975 2.3 mill 28,395
    **1976 2.6 mill 32,098
    1977 2.5 mill 30,864
    1978 2.5 mill 30,864
    *1979 2.3 mill 28,395
    1980 2.0 mill 24,691
    1981 STRIKE SHORTENDED
    1982 1.3 mill 16,049
    1983 1.2 mill 14,814
    1984 1.3 mill 16,049
    1985 1.8 mill 22,222
    1986 1.7 mill 20,987
    1987 2.2 mill 27,160
    1988 2.1 mill 25,925
    1989 2.0 mill 24,691
    **1990 2.4 mill 29,629
    1991 2.4 mill 29,629
    1992 2.3 mill 28,395
    1993 2.5 mill 30,864
    1994 STRIKE did not finish season/world series
    **1995 STRIKE shortened, won division
    1996 1.9 mill 23,456
    1997 1.8 mill 22,222
    1998 1.8 mill 22,222
    1999 2.0 mill 24,691
    2000 2.6 mill 32,098
    2001 1.9 mill 23,456
    2002 1.9 mill 23,456
    2003 2.4 mill 29,629
    2004 2.3 mill 28,395
    2005 1.9 mill 23,456
    2006 2.1 mill 25,925
    2007 2.1 mill 25,925
    2008 2.1 mill 25,925
    2009 1.7 mill 20,987
    *2010 2.1 mill 25,925
    2011 1,746,557 27,723 av in 63 home games. On pace for 2.25 mill
    Last edited by ervinsm84; 08-14-2011 at 05:43 AM.
    Newsflash!

    Joey Votto does not care about RBI.

    NEITHER SHOULD ANY OF US

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    Re: Reds Front office Blaming attendance why they wont do anything this off season???

    Attendance is BS when it comes to payroll unless you're at Florida Marlins awful levels. These people have money to burn. It's just a matter of how bad they want to field a winner on an annual basis.
    Rounding third and heading for home...

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    Re: Reds Front office Blaming attendance why they wont do anything this off season???

    (sarcasm ahead), yeah, sure.........it's not like the wettest rainiest Spring ever had nothing to do with it.

    If this is true, Reds ownership doesn't get it.

    I think they thought all they had to do was sign these guys to extensions to show a commitment to winning. For me, filling the glaring holes this past offseason to try to improve some more would have shown me more.

    Ownership/management stood pat and thought they'd be alright. Most fans on Redszone seem to know more because the general offseason consensus was that LF, cleanup hitter, improved starting pitching, possible leadoff hitter that doesn't K so much, and SS all needed addressed, and the Reds had plenty to deal.

    Asleep at the wheel but blaming the fans. That'll go over well.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

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    Re: Reds Front office Blaming attendance why they wont do anything this off season???

    Quote Originally Posted by fewfirstchoice View Post
    Attendance is horrible because they didn't do anything this past off season. If the FO would have made a significant upgrade to LF, SS, or a true #1 starter the Reds would be in the running for the playoffs this season and attendance would be great. This owner and FO don't seem to get it. After a central division championship they should have spent some money and keep this team competitive and they fans would have shown up in bunches. They just don't get it.
    The Reds front office invested $150MM in the team in the offseason. How is that not spending money? They didn't go out and get anybody else, but the market in the offseason was heavily inflated, and there were no good options to sign. Aren't you glad the Reds weren't able to sign Jason Bartlett like they were trying to? And regrading LF, that position has been league average this season. SS has been disappointing, but nobody could have predicted that Janish would be historically bad and Renteria wouldn't start hitting until late July. And they invested in a #1 in the offseason. Cueto has been a top 5 pitcher in the majors this year

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    Re: Reds Front office Blaming attendance why they wont do anything this off season???

    i mean i would never expect the reds to be big spenders in FA and dont think they should as it would handicap their team to just continue adding retreads. But they should look into making trades to get the players they need.

    Alonso needs to be playing 3b everyday next year or be traded for someone who can.

    A manager change, Chapman in the rotation, and an answer at SS until Cozart is ready would be nice feasible moves.
    Last edited by webbbj; 08-14-2011 at 11:59 AM.

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    Re: Reds Front office Blaming attendance why they wont do anything this off season???

    Adding payroll by signing FA's is not the answer. The Reds just need to figure out how to use the pieces they have, while making a few tweeks along the way. The Reds attendance is a factor and fans need to realize that they can't spend the money that teams with much higher attendance/TV revenues can spend.

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    Retro-Gamer Krawhitham's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Front office Blaming attendance why they wont do anything this off season???

    Reds historical attendance numbers does not mean jack, because payrolls are at an alltime high. In the past attendance use to cover the team's payroll. That is clearly not the case since around 1995 - 2000

    this season average is 27,997
    average ticket price is $19 (from Forbes)
    81 home games

    27,997 X 81 = 2,267,757

    2,267,757 X $19 = $43,087,383

    Here is the break down of Reds attendance (from baseball almanac) vs MLB average payroll (From AP's single player average * 25)

    Code:
    YEAR	REDS	MLB PAYROLL
    1970		22266	$732,575.00
    1971		18532	$788,575.00
    1972		20928	$852,300.00
    1973		24909	$914,150.00
    1974		26556	$1,020,975.00
    1975		28588	$1,116,900.00
    1976		32466	$1,287,525.00
    1977		31107	$1,901,650.00
    1978		31460	$2,496,900.00
    1979		29279	$2,838,950.00
    1980		24815	$3,593,900.00
    1981		20254	$4,641,275.00
    1982		16377	$6,037,425.00
    1983		14697	$7,229,850.00
    1984		15752	$8,235,200.00
    1985		22650	$9,278,925.00
    1986		20894	$10,313,000.00
    1987		26978	$10,311,350.00
    1988		25746	$10,968,225.00
    1989		24436	$12,431,350.00
    1990		29640	$14,938,425.00
    1991		29289	$21,287,300.00
    1992		28592	$25,716,675.00
    1993		30287	$26,902,225.00
    1994		33003	$29,206,575.00
    1995		25523	$27,769,150.00
    1996		22981	$27,999,525.00
    1997		22047	$33,415,225.00
    1998		22144	$34,970,775.00
    1999		25292	$40,279,150.00
    2000		31624	$47,390,750.00
    2001		23794	$53,472,400.00
    2002		22913	$57,391,225.00
    2003		29077	$59,304,725.00
    2004		28237	$57,838,375.00
    2005		23989	$61,914,725.00
    2006		26351	$67,482,300.00
    2007		25388	$70,500,000.00
    2008		25415	$78,750,000.00
    2009		21579	$81,005,150.00
    2010		25925	$82,445,700.00
    2011		27997	$82,634,825.00
    The Reds are always in the middle of the pack and close to the MLB average, in 2011 the payroll is $80,826,667 LINK

    So Reds attendance only covers 53% of this years payroll

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    Member ervinsm84's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Front office Blaming attendance why they wont do anything this off season???

    I clearly do not understand why historical attendance figures mean nothing when trying to figure out how many fans are likely to come to a game.
    Newsflash!

    Joey Votto does not care about RBI.

    NEITHER SHOULD ANY OF US

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    Re: Reds Front office Blaming attendance why they wont do anything this off season???

    I still think people are forgetting we're in one of the worst economies of the last 80 to 100 years. Surely that has impacted attendance.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

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    Re: Reds Front office Blaming attendance why they wont do anything this off season???

    I debated posting this because of so many people will call BS and say its not true, but here goes anyhow.....in 2009 I sat down in a little dive BBQ joint in southern Ohio....I looked over and who was sitting there? Jim Bowden, leatherpants himself was ordering a beef brisket and mac n cheese so I allowed him to eat then I quietly said hello and wished him good luck in his future career choices.....he sat down next to me and my kids and it ended up being an hour long conversation about Baseball, JB was all about talking his profession......I felt bad that I was talking shop but he insisted that it did not bother him and he enjoyed every minute of it.....

    without going into every last detail, I asked him about attendance and payroll and how much it truly effected what they spend.....while it does effect what Bob allows Walt spend, it is a small chunk compared the puzzle.....Jimbo made it known that the FO knows you must put a winning team out there for at least 2 years in a row, preferrably 3-4 years in a row before you will expect big spikes in fans showing up.....He said they have a formula they use to plug into a 5 year plan, and if they think they will compete for the next 5 years then spending now might not pay off for 5 years, but if they truly think that it will pay off then they will make the move.....

    basically, JB noted that even the smallest market teams have the ability to spend 100 million for 2-3 years in a row and if it dont pan out then they can go back to the 50-70 mill range and it really not effect their long term plans...not sure if any of this makes sense to you all but it helped me understand the ins and outs of baseball....

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    Re: Reds Front office Blaming attendance why they wont do anything this off season???

    Hire a manager that is a better fit for where the organization is, and you'll see a huge upswing in ticket sales for 2 reasons:

    #1: Reds fans are smart. They will actually pay to come see the kids play.
    #2: The Reds will win more with a better manager.

    Very simple really. Dusty has cost this club so much from so many standpoints.


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