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Thread: Brandon Phillips back batting first

  1. #1
    SSG, Red Army Choir Guacarock's Avatar
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    Brandon Phillips back batting first

    Here's the story:

    http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/...k_cin&c_id=cin

    What's your take?

    Is Brandon better positioned leading off for us than hitting cleanup?

    Can this move put us back on a tear, like in 2010, when the Reds went 43-29 with Phillips leading off?

    Is he a temporary fix or our answer to set the tables?

    What's going on here, is Brandon priming the pump for his contract extension talks or stepping forward as a leader to solve a real team problem?

    Did he need to step forward on his own? Could anyone in charge ask him to do so first?

    Interesting development, and anything that's this interesting this late in the Dog Days is worth kicking around.
    Last edited by Guacarock; 08-18-2011 at 01:30 AM.

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  3. #2
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Brandon Phillips back batting first

    Phillips isn't a lead off hitter. Phillips isn't a clean up hitter. Phillips is a 6th or 7th hitter.

    He shouldn't bat leadoff because his OBP isn't that good.
    He shouldn't bat clean up because, well, lets be honest, he isn't that good of a hitter.

  4. #3
    Moderator The Operator's Avatar
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    Re: Brandon Phillips back batting first

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Phillips isn't a lead off hitter. Phillips isn't a clean up hitter. Phillips is a 6th or 7th hitter.
    Agreed. He is miscast anywhere in the top and/or heart of the order. He certainly brings some things to the table but lead off and middle of the order skills aren't it.
    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
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    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Brandon Phillips back batting first

    Quote Originally Posted by The Operator View Post
    Agreed. He is miscast anywhere in the top and/or heart of the order. He certainly brings some things to the table but lead off and middle of the order skills aren't it.
    This statement applies to the entire roster not named Bruce or Votto. Besides those two, Phillips, a part time catcher (Ramon), a part time OF (Heisey), a couple positionless kids getting cups of coffee (Frazier and Alonso), a bench jockey (Cairo), a departed Jonny Gomes and 3 pitchers are the only players above the relatively low standard of league average. There really isn't much that Dusty can do to fix the line-up. I criticize his line-ups as much as everyone, but he simply doesn't have the right players to fit together to create a real cohesive unit.

    Once again, this curious move is on Walt.
    Last edited by mth123; 08-18-2011 at 04:33 AM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Brandon Phillips back batting first

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Phillips isn't a lead off hitter. Phillips isn't a clean up hitter. Phillips is a 6th or 7th hitter.

    He shouldn't bat leadoff because his OBP isn't that good.
    He shouldn't bat clean up because, well, lets be honest, he isn't that good of a hitter.
    Yes.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Brandon Phillips back batting first

    This team has a 3-hole hitter and a bunch of 6/7/8 hitters. And a 9-hole hitter when Janish plays.

    They don't have a leadoff hitter. Or a 2-hole hitter. Or a cleanup hitter.

    I will say that Brandon Phillips is the least of the problems. He hits wherever the team asks him to hit and offers to help when he thinks he can help. Not his fault the team couldn't fill those other spots in the lineup. Someone has to do it.
    Last edited by osuceltic; 08-18-2011 at 10:30 AM.

  8. #7
    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: Brandon Phillips back batting first

    So then with the current roster, who should be leading off?
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

  9. #8
    Blowing away bad memories Redsfan320's Avatar
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    Re: Brandon Phillips back batting first

    So then with the current roster, who should be leading off?
    Eesh... I'll go with Sapp for now, let him try to work things out.

    320
    I'd rather listen to Kelch read the phone book than suffer through Thom Brennaman's attempt to make every instance on the field the most important event since the discovery of manned space flight. -westofyou

  10. #9
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Brandon Phillips back batting first

    Code:
    Name		BB%	K%	ISO	BABIP	AVG	OBP*	SLG	wOBA	wRC+	 Fld	Bsr	WAR
    Joey Votto	16%	17%	.207	.366	.321	.434	.528	.414	161	 6.2   -2.9	5.6
    Ramon Hernandez  7%	12%	.176	.304	.296	.355	.472	.355	121	-1.0   -2.5	1.9
    Jay Bruce	11%	23%	.240	.313	.274	.351	.514	.366	129	 1.2	1.4	3.4
    Ryan Hanigan	12%	11%	.094	.264	.249	.344	.343	.309	90	-1.0	0.8	1.2
    Miguel Cairo	 7%	11%	.163	.275	.270	.335	.434	.329	104	 7.4	1.0	1.9
    Fred Lewis	10%	18%	.101	.290	.247	.333	.348	.295	80	 1.9	0.1	0.3
    DatDudeBP	 6%	12%	.133	.299	.282	.329	.415	.321	98	 9.9	2.5	3.4
    Drew Stubbs	 9%	30%	.137	.343	.249	.323	.387	.324	100	-4.6	5.3	2.4
    Chris Heisey	 6%	25%	.203	.282	.249	.307	.452	.330	104	-0.7	1.4	1.0
    Edgar Renteria	 8%	19%	.100	.292	.245	.306	.345	.294	79	-1.3	1.5	0.6
    Scott Rolen	 4%	13%	.155	.262	.242	.279	.397	.295	80	 7.3	0.5	1.3
    Paul Janish	 5%	12%	.052	.254	.225	.271	.277	.244	45	 1.7	0.7    -0.2
    Given our current lineup, if Sappelt is in the lineup, its him. Yeah, he's struggled a bit so far. But it's VERY early. I'd like to see how he handles consistent playing time. His overall game is far-and-away the best fit for the leadoff spot.

    If Heisey is in LF, I'd like to see Stubbs there. If you have a guy who strikes out a lot, how do you minimize the damage? You bat him where he's not going to have guys on base as often.

    At this point the only major difference bewteen Phillips and Stubbs as hitters is that BP hits singles where Stubbs takes a walk. The overall value is quite comparable. But if you're looking at the 5-7 spots, do you want a walk or a homer.

    Don't get me wrong, in the long run I like Stubbs batting 6th -- a guy who can drive in some runs while manufacturing some himself. But for now...

    And one other thing, why has it taken Dusty so long to move Hernandez out of the 7/8 spot? He's been the 3rd most productive hitter on the team and it hasn't really been close. If you want to split Votto and Bruce, I'd be doing it with Hernandez.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  11. #10
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    Re: Brandon Phillips back batting first

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Phillips isn't a lead off hitter. Phillips isn't a clean up hitter. Phillips is a 6th or 7th hitter.

    He shouldn't bat leadoff because his OBP isn't that good.
    He shouldn't bat clean up because, well, lets be honest, he isn't that good of a hitter.
    So it sounds like you don't think he's worth the $12mill for next year?

  12. #11
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Brandon Phillips back batting first

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    So it sounds like you don't think he's worth the $12mill for next year?
    Tough to say. I would offer him the money to keep him, even though I am not sure he will be worth it. My reasoning is this: If we overpay but still get solid overall production, I can eat a little bit of money there. But if we let him walk and can't land the right guy in free agency to replace him, we don't have anyone in the system to step in right now and take his spot and we are very likely to take a large step backwards there. Give him the money for 2012 and see how things play out on the farm or via trade for a replacement. I would NOT extend him though. Wouldn't even think about it.

  13. #12
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Brandon Phillips back batting first

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Code:
    Name		BB%	K%	ISO	BABIP	AVG	OBP*	SLG	wOBA	wRC+	 Fld	Bsr	WAR
    Joey Votto	16%	17%	.207	.366	.321	.434	.528	.414	161	 6.2   -2.9	5.6
    Ramon Hernandez  7%	12%	.176	.304	.296	.355	.472	.355	121	-1.0   -2.5	1.9
    Jay Bruce	11%	23%	.240	.313	.274	.351	.514	.366	129	 1.2	1.4	3.4
    Ryan Hanigan	12%	11%	.094	.264	.249	.344	.343	.309	90	-1.0	0.8	1.2
    Miguel Cairo	 7%	11%	.163	.275	.270	.335	.434	.329	104	 7.4	1.0	1.9
    Fred Lewis	10%	18%	.101	.290	.247	.333	.348	.295	80	 1.9	0.1	0.3
    DatDudeBP	 6%	12%	.133	.299	.282	.329	.415	.321	98	 9.9	2.5	3.4
    Drew Stubbs	 9%	30%	.137	.343	.249	.323	.387	.324	100	-4.6	5.3	2.4
    Chris Heisey	 6%	25%	.203	.282	.249	.307	.452	.330	104	-0.7	1.4	1.0
    Edgar Renteria	 8%	19%	.100	.292	.245	.306	.345	.294	79	-1.3	1.5	0.6
    Scott Rolen	 4%	13%	.155	.262	.242	.279	.397	.295	80	 7.3	0.5	1.3
    Paul Janish	 5%	12%	.052	.254	.225	.271	.277	.244	45	 1.7	0.7    -0.2
    Given our current lineup, if Sappelt is in the lineup, its him. Yeah, he's struggled a bit so far. But it's VERY early. I'd like to see how he handles consistent playing time. His overall game is far-and-away the best fit for the leadoff spot.

    If Heisey is in LF, I'd like to see Stubbs there. If you have a guy who strikes out a lot, how do you minimize the damage? You bat him where he's not going to have guys on base as often.

    At this point the only major difference bewteen Phillips and Stubbs as hitters is that BP hits singles where Stubbs takes a walk. The overall value is quite comparable. But if you're looking at the 5-7 spots, do you want a walk or a homer.

    Don't get me wrong, in the long run I like Stubbs batting 6th -- a guy who can drive in some runs while manufacturing some himself. But for now...

    And one other thing, why has it taken Dusty so long to move Hernandez out of the 7/8 spot? He's been the 3rd most productive hitter on the team and it hasn't really been close. If you want to split Votto and Bruce, I'd be doing it with Hernandez.
    Agree on all points. Great post!
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  14. #13
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: Brandon Phillips back batting first

    I think we can all agree the Reds aren't playing meaningful games right now, so this isn't a time where I'm going to sweat lineup optimization. Just like the important thing is to get Alonso some at-bats even if it means suffering some bad defense, we should get Sappelt some at-bats and not sweat where in the lineup they're coming.

    Long term, Sappelt is better suited to lead off than Phillips, but the guy is struggling in his initial exposure to the show. It's not going to hurt him right now to take a deep breath and watch some other guy take the game's first swings.

    Also agree fully that our lineup has too many right-handed 6/7 types. It won't hurt if we can reconfigure it a bit over the winter.
    Not all who wander are lost

  15. #14
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    Re: Brandon Phillips back batting first

    Sappelt isn't the long term answer at lead off. Sappelt may be the long term answer at fourth or fifth outfielder. And Heisey has a big edge over Sappelt as a back up because Heisey has MUCH more power. (Sappelt does make a lot of contact, true.)

    Phillips is not an ideal lead off hitter, but it's either him or Stubbs on this team IMO.

    And my hope is not that the Reds acquire a truer lead off man. To me, that's secondary. My hope is that they acquire a clean up man to hit between the two lefty sluggers.

    Solidify that middle of the order and good things will happen. So I'll take:

    Phillips
    Cozart
    Votto
    LF with power
    Bruce
    Rolen
    Stubbs
    Hanigan/Mesoraco
    Pitcher

    -or-

    Stubbs
    Phillips
    Votto
    LF with power
    Bruce
    Rolen
    Hanigan/Mes
    Cozart
    Pitcher

    And when Rolen is out, Francisco, Frazier, or Cairo fills in.

    I can live with either lineup for next year.

  16. #15
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Brandon Phillips back batting first

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Tough to say. I would offer him the money to keep him, even though I am not sure he will be worth it. My reasoning is this: If we overpay but still get solid overall production, I can eat a little bit of money there. But if we let him walk and can't land the right guy in free agency to replace him, we don't have anyone in the system to step in right now and take his spot and we are very likely to take a large step backwards there. Give him the money for 2012 and see how things play out on the farm or via trade for a replacement. I would NOT extend him though. Wouldn't even think about it.
    I agree with that reasoning


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