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Thread: Alonso predicament

  1. #1
    Member wlf WV's Avatar
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    Alonso predicament

    Who's to blame-player development ;or front office not being able to move him for viable return before now?Someone had to see this coming,they get paid to.It's a little late in the game now to be teaching defensive fundamentals(what position?)Maybe I'm imagining things,but there seems a disconnect somewhere.The only thing I can think of is that we're not seeing the same outfielder that played in AAA.It's baffling to me.

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso predicament

    Quote Originally Posted by wlf WV View Post
    Who's to blame-player development ;or front office not being able to move him for viable return before now?Someone had to see this coming,they get paid to.It's a little late in the game now to be teaching defensive fundamentals(what position?)Maybe I'm imagining things,but there seems a disconnect somewhere.The only thing I can think of is that we're not seeing the same outfielder that played in AAA.It's baffling to me.
    I still think its Dusty. I know, I know.... I don't like Dusty. But lets be real here. The last two seasons, the minor league guys have spent time getting Alonso time in left. This season, he played more in left than he played anywhere else. Walt traded Jonny Gomes and came out and said it was to get a spot for Alonso. So, the minor league guys clearly thought he was able to not kill a team defensively in left field. Walt Jocketty clearly thought the same thing. Dusty calls the entire thing quits after 3 games. It seems to me that its a Dusty thing rather than anyone else.

    Don't get me wrong.... the guy isn't much of a left fielder. In fact, he is a bad one. But I don't think he is worse than Dunn ever was and he might be slightly worse than Gomes is. Yes, he has looked bad a few times out there. I can't preach small sample size enough though. There is a reason Rick Sweet played him 70+ times down there in Louisville and it wasn't because he was looking that bad all the time.

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    Re: Alonso predicament

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I still think its Dusty. I know, I know.... I don't like Dusty. But lets be real here. The last two seasons, the minor league guys have spent time getting Alonso time in left. This season, he played more in left than he played anywhere else. Walt traded Jonny Gomes and came out and said it was to get a spot for Alonso. So, the minor league guys clearly thought he was able to not kill a team defensively in left field. Walt Jocketty clearly thought the same thing. Dusty calls the entire thing quits after 3 games. It seems to me that its a Dusty thing rather than anyone else.

    Don't get me wrong.... the guy isn't much of a left fielder. In fact, he is a bad one. But I don't think he is worse than Dunn ever was and he might be slightly worse than Gomes is. Yes, he has looked bad a few times out there. I can't preach small sample size enough though. There is a reason Rick Sweet played him 70+ times down there in Louisville and it wasn't because he was looking that bad all the time.
    Completely disagree. Dusty gets paid to win games. Every time he puts Alonso out there, he botches a play that costs the team a run or more. The minor league guys can experiment. Dusty can't.

    This isn't rocket science. One of two things are going to happen. Alonso is going to be traded (as he should have been already) or Votto is going to be traded and Alonso will play the only position he is capable of playing -- first base. This isn't some kind of advanced math or anything at all unusual in the history of the game.

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso predicament

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post
    Completely disagree. Dusty gets paid to win games. Every time he puts Alonso out there, he botches a play that costs the team a run or more. The minor league guys can experiment. Dusty can't.

    This isn't rocket science. One of two things are going to happen. Alonso is going to be traded (as he should have been already) or Votto is going to be traded and Alonso will play the only position he is capable of playing -- first base. This isn't some kind of advanced math or anything at all unusual in the history of the game.
    If Alonso went out there and did what people think he is (rather than what he has done) in the Majors in left field, there is ZERO chance that he would have spent as much time in left field as he did in the minors. Yes, you can experiment out there. But it doesn't last as long as it does. Your GM doesn't trade a left fielder then say it was to make room for Alonso.

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    Re: Alonso predicament

    What pridicament?

    We have a solid prospect at first base, who we will hold on to in case we trade Votto.

    Or perhaps we trade Alonso in the right deal.

    There is no gun to our head at the moment.

    BTW, you may want to consier either a space (or even two) between your sentences or indenting each sentence. It certainly makes for a easier read.

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    Member wlf WV's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso predicament

    I don't imagine the front office was fooled about his abilities.It is a perplexing situation.

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    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso predicament

    Alonso should be down in L'ville playing. Bring up Hermida if you need a lefty bat off the bench.
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

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    Re: Alonso predicament

    None of us know what's really happened, but, IMO:

    1. Jocketty really likes Alonso's bat and has since the draft. He sees a 900 OPS slugger with few holes in his swing and very good plate coverage.
    2. Votto's emergence as a true elite player meant keeping him for now, but concern about being able to afford him continues.
    3. Jocketty isn't willing to deal Alonso for less than the true difference-maker he sees in front of him.
    4. Other teams see a GM with two good 1B possibiliites and are low-balling, hoping to make out well in the deal. Or, those teams have reservations about the ability of Alonso.
    5. To keep both Votto and Alonso in the lineup, one had to play out of position. Because of his breakout season last year, Votto isn't going to be asked to move. Alonso, OTOH, is a prospect that could play another position. Playing him at another spot in the minors hurts no one, aside from the minor league won/loss record, which few GMs care at all about. (Or at least care little about it.) The risk/ reward of the move in the minors is negligible. Once he came to the majors, Alonso's OF defense cost the team a couple wins and the starting pitchers a few earned runs. This isn't acceptable at the major league level.

    There is no conspiracy, IMO. No power play between GM and manager. No holding back some HoF prospect.

    Votto is a better player than Alonso.
    Alonso cannot play LF adequately at the mlb level.
    Therefore, Votto plays in front of Alonso.

    Now, perhaps Alonso can learn to play another position, such as 3B. (The quickness, the footwork, the speed and angle off the bat are all similar to 1B. The hands are a question, as is the arm.) He'll likely still be really, really bad defensively, but, again, if he hits like Tony Perez in 1970, I'll take his Tony Perez-like 1970 defense.
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    Member wlf WV's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso predicament

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    What pridicament?

    We have a solid prospect at first base, who we will hold on to in case we trade Votto.

    Or perhaps we trade Alonso in the right deal.

    There is no gun to our head at the moment.

    BTW, you may want to consier either a space (or even two) between your sentences or indenting each sentence. It certainly makes for a easier read.
    Thanks for the input,I'll try.Don't expect too much,I can't even type. If he's still with us in 2012, what do you do with him?

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    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso predicament

    If there's anything Dusty's career has shown it's that he does what he think will win the games today. He rarely wants to do something today for the sake of tomorrow, especially if he might get embarrassed in the process. Playing Alonso would make Dusty feel like he has to tell the other 24 games that this year is no longer important and he doesn't want to do that. That's my read at least.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Re: Alonso predicament

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    If there's anything Dusty's career has shown it's that he does what he think will win the games today. He rarely wants to do something today for the sake of tomorrow, especially if he might get embarrassed in the process. Playing Alonso would make Dusty feel like he has to tell the other 24 games that this year is no longer important and he doesn't want to do that. That's my read at least.
    Who are the managers who have managed 5 plus years who haven't committed that crime?

    Alonso is a statue.

    He isn't going to play 100 games in MLB as an OF.

    No crime in that, Dusty just happens to have the guts to say it out loud.

  13. #12
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso predicament

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Who are the managers who have managed 5 plus years who haven't committed that crime?

    Alonso is a statue.

    He isn't going to play 100 games in MLB as an OF.

    No crime in that, Dusty just happens to have the guts to say it out loud.
    I'm not suggesting he belongs out there. But clearly somebody in the Reds organization wanted to give it an extended try, including at the major league level. I'm not saying Dusty is right nor wrong -- just that he's not on the same page.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso predicament

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I'm not suggesting he belongs out there. But clearly somebody in the Reds organization wanted to give it an extended try, including at the major league level. I'm not saying Dusty is right nor wrong -- just that he's not on the same page.
    My guess is that he would have gotten the extended try in the majors but he was an absolute fiasco out there. Tough to play someone when he looks like that, no matter what the case.

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso predicament

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    My guess is that he would have gotten the extended try in the majors but he was an absolute fiasco out there. Tough to play someone when he looks like that, no matter what the case.
    Not when the reports say "He isn't as bad as he has looked in 3 games out there". And you have to assume they do say that because there is no way the experiment would have lasted that long if he were.

  16. #15
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Alonso predicament

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Not when the reports say "He isn't as bad as he has looked in 3 games out there". And you have to assume they do say that because there is no way the experiment would have lasted that long if he were.
    But when he looks like he never played the position out there, maybe they need to reassess in the short term.


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