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Thread: Hardball Times: The Virtual 1962-1969 Cincinnati Reds

  1. #1
    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Hardball Times: The Virtual 1962-1969 Cincinnati Reds

    The talk in one of the Votto threads reminded me of a couple of articles I read that examined a handful of moves the Reds made in the 1960's and erased them, if you will, looking at how the club might have fared if they had retained the players in question.

    Here's the first of the series from The Hardball Times

    http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/ar...i-reds-part-1/

    Here's the the 2nd

    http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/ar...i-reds-part-2/

    Interesting read that makes you think "what if".
    “In the same way that a baseball season never really begins, it never really ends either.” - Lonnie Wheeler, "Bleachers, A Summer in Wrigley Field"

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    Member wlf WV's Avatar
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    Re: Hardball Times: The Virtual 1962-1969 Cincinnati Reds

    Pitching was vastly improved.

    Thanks for sharing the articles.

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    Re: Hardball Times: The Virtual 1962-1969 Cincinnati Reds

    What makes me sad is I remember the Osteen for Sisler trade.The sad part is that it was almost 50 years ago.
    "Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser."

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    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Hardball Times: The Virtual 1962-1969 Cincinnati Reds

    Since I mentioned the 1962 season in passing in a current thread, I'm going to bump this thread because it's such a fascinating review of moves the Reds made during the 1960's that kept the club from reaching the pinnacles of baseball, leaving the 1970's BRM teams to have been the resurgence of Reds baseball.

    Enjoy!
    “In the same way that a baseball season never really begins, it never really ends either.” - Lonnie Wheeler, "Bleachers, A Summer in Wrigley Field"

    The Baseball Emporium - Books & Things, that's Rallyonion.com

    The Baseball Bookstore

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    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Hardball Times: The Virtual 1962-1969 Cincinnati Reds

    The Reds made some very questionable deals in that period. Makes you really wonder what they were thinking as most of the players they got in return were very mediocre.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

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    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Hardball Times: The Virtual 1962-1969 Cincinnati Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    The Reds made some very questionable deals in that period. Makes you really wonder what they were thinking as most of the players they got in return were very mediocre.
    Seems as if the FO was great at identifying talent, but terrible at utilizing organizational assets.

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    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Hardball Times: The Virtual 1962-1969 Cincinnati Reds

    I realize hindsight is 20-20, and, yes, Bob Howsam made some brilliant trades in the 1970s, but the Reds in that decade also made a few terrible trades.
    Some of the bad trades, such as trading away Hal McRae along with Wayne Simpson to the Royals after the 1972 season for Roger Nelson and Richie Scheinblum are at least partially defensible. Simpson for Nelson was essentially a wash of two sore armed pitchers, and maybe it couldn't have been expected that McRae would have such a long and distinguished career while Scheinblum did squat for the Reds.
    The head scratcher trades Howsam made were the trade after the 1973 season of Ross Grimsley and the trade on 6/15/77 of Mike Caldwell. Those two trades probably cost the Reds the 1978 NL West title and may have cost them the 1974 title as well.
    Grimsley was not enough of a conformist to fit in with the mid-70s Reds mindset, but he was also a quality leftie,something the Reds certainly did not have a surplus of. His first season (1974) in Baltimore he went 18-13 with a 3.07 ERA, a 112 ERA+, with 17 complete games and 295 innings. In return for him the Reds got Bill Wood, Junior Kennedy and Merv Rettenmund. It would have been a better exchange if the Reds had simply settled for a bag of used baseballs.
    Even worse was the trade of Caldwell. In 1977 the Reds starting pitching collapsed, and the inability of Tom Seaver to start every game meant that even his mid-season acquisition was not enough to cure that problem. Despite that the Reds dumped Caldwell at the then trade deadline for Dick O'Keefe and Garry Pyka.
    In 1978 Caldwell went 22-9 for the Brewers with a 2.36 ERA, 160 ERA+, with 23 complete games and 293 innings. Meanwhile Grimsley went 20-11 for the Orioles with a 3.05 ERA, a 115 ERA+, with 19 complete games and 263 innings. Put Caldwell and Grimsley on the 1978 staff with Seaver and the Reds finish first.
    The Reds reportedly traded Caldwell because Howsam, Wagner & Co. did not like Caldwell's agent.
    Remember too that at the time the Reds were quite prosperous, having lead the NL in attendance in 1976. Suppose they had kept Grimsley and Caldwell, and had then also participated in the free agency market instead of standing apart from it. The free agency signing of one Goose Gossage after the 1977 season would have done wonders for the Reds bullpen.
    The era of the BRM ended in part because of the hubris of the Reds management.
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    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Hardball Times: The Virtual 1962-1969 Cincinnati Reds

    If we're going to play "what if", let's look at the draft picks from the late 60's/

    1965: Carbo and Bench (2nd Round)
    1966: Gary Nolan
    1967: Wayne Simpson
    1968: Timothy Grant (who?)
    1969: Don Gullett. Rawley Eastwick (3rd rd) Ken Griffey (29th!)

    After that the team got better in the standings and the draft picks worse. But if the REDS had placed better in 64-68, who knows if they would have been able to draft some of these key players. (Griffey would have been there in the 29th round probably)
    Last edited by oneupper; 08-09-2013 at 04:04 PM.
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    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Hardball Times: The Virtual 1962-1969 Cincinnati Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by oneupper View Post
    If we're going to play "what if", let's look at the draft picks from the late 60's/

    1965: Carbo and Bench (2nd Round)
    1966: Gary Nolan
    1967: Wayne Simpson
    1968: Timothy Grant (who?)
    1969: Don Gullett. Rawley Eastwick (3rd rd) Ken Griffey (29th!)

    After that the team got better in the standings and the draft picks worse. But if the REDS had placed better in 64-68, who knows if they would have been able to draft some of these key players. (Griffey would have been there in the 29th round probably)
    Of course the Reds did place pretty good in 1964, finishing in a tie for second place, one game behind the Cardinals. Since every team passed on Bench in the first round in 1965 they would have still had a shot at him.
    The really bad draft for the Reds may have been 1971 when they passed on both Mike Schmidt and George Brett.
    What I enjoyed about the Hardball Times article is that it did not require the Reds to make any brilliant moves to acquire new talent; it simply analyzed what could have been had they kept what they had.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Hardball Times: The Virtual 1962-1969 Cincinnati Reds

    Sparky Didn't Like Grimsley One Little Bit.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

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    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Hardball Times: The Virtual 1962-1969 Cincinnati Reds

    Pretty interesting articles.... my Reds fanhood was budding at that time and all those guys are very familiar. I think I still have all their baseball cards. One thing stood out to me:

    1964

    ...

    Osteen's presence would eject the 35-year-old, close-to-the-end-of-the-line Ryne Duren from the back end of the Cincinnati bullpen, and allow the team to rely less heavily upon the swingman quartet of Bob Purkey, Joey Jay, John Tsitouris and Joe Nuxhall in starting assignments.
    Game 162 loser and breaker of a young 12 yr. old Roy's heart.

    Pay attention to the open sky

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    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Hardball Times: The Virtual 1962-1969 Cincinnati Reds

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker View Post
    Pretty interesting articles.... my Reds fanhood was budding at that time and all those guys are very familiar. I think I still have all their baseball cards. One thing stood out to me:



    Game 162 loser and breaker of a young 12 yr. old Roy's heart.
    -2 points, Roy,for speaking the name of He Whose Name Must Not Be Spoken around here.

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