Turn Off Ads?
Page 1 of 6 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 90

Thread: "Everybody is trying to get their numbers"

  1. #1
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    15,931

    "Everybody is trying to get their numbers"

    http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/

    ...You can’t just say: ‘Hey man, you’re not playing anymore.’ Everybody here’s trying to make a living. Everybody here is trying to have a good year. Everybody here is trying get a job for next year, whether it is here or somewhere else. So you do what you can.”

    “I was a September call-up. These guys are getting a lot more playing time than I ever got. Everybody is trying to get their numbers. I’m doing what’s best for them and what’s best for the team....

    Joey’s trying to get 100 RBI. Jay’s trying to get 100 RBI. Stubbs is trying to get 100 runs. These are things you can’t take back. Brandon is trying to have the best year he can because his contract expires. You try to keep all these things in mind. Whether people understand or not, I don’t have any remorse about it. These guys have been busting their butts all year long.”
    I'm not in a clubhouse, so I can't say how common this logic is, but I can't believe Dusty is so brazen about it. He's basically saying that getting guys to round numbers and positioning them for Free Agency is a higher priority than giving playing time to young players who are key parts of our future.

    If there were ever a doubt that he's a player's manager, there you go. Nothing like a manager showing his players than their individual stat lines trump what's best for the organization.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #2
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Cincy West
    Posts
    4,976

    Re: "Everybody is trying to get their numbers"

    This has bothered me over the last 2 weeks as well. I'm sure that this kind of thinking goes on all of the time, but I've never heard it spoken aloud before as a reason not to play guys who need to be evaluated and gain experience on the MLB level, men who are going to be on the 2012 Reds team. Frazier, Alonso, Mes- these guys are not going back to Louisville. They're either playing here next year or being traded.

    We've got to get Stubby those 100 runs, though, because that proves....nothing. But whatever it is, you can't take it back.

    And Fay made a point that Dusty was really peeved to be asked about Mes catching.

  4. #3
    GR8NESS WMR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Lexington, Kentucky
    Posts
    16,957

    Re: "Everybody is trying to get their numbers"

    Nauseating.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Calipari is not, nor has he ever been accused or "caught", cheating. He himself turned in one of his players (Camby) for dealing with an agent to get one Final Four overturned. The other is all on the NCAA and Rose. (IF Rose cheated.)
    "Cheering for Kentucky is like watching Star Wars and hoping Darth Vader chokes an ewok"


  5. #4
    Member 757690's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Dayton
    Posts
    10,027

    Re: "Everybody is trying to get their numbers"

    Nothing like a manager showing his players than their individual stat lines trump what's best for the organization.
    I'm not sure that helping players get to individual goals isn't what's best for the organization. Do you really think that Frazier, Sappelt, Mesoraco, Alonso will have their development stunted because the get get 60 PA's each this month instead of 80?

    If I'm an MLB player, reaching 100 RBI's or runs scored or 200 K's or any milestone is going to mean a ton to me. It will be something that I can say I did and be proud of for the rest of my life. And it may be irrational, but I would be upset if I only had 99 RBI's instead of 100.

    I want a manager who understands me not only as a player, but as person who will have a life after baseball.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  6. #5
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    42,389

    Re: "Everybody is trying to get their numbers"

    Dusty lives by this credo said about Dave Bristol:

    "What Bristol has done," says Gordy Coleman, "is to restore the self-pride and self-respect of all 25 men. They come to the park knowing that they are going to be used in some way to help win. For a professional athlete it is not enough to stand up when someone else hits a homer and to pat him on the back and shake his hand and then sit down and be through for the day. You have to get a chance to contribute, or you begin to lose your own self-respect."
    That's what makes it a team, right?

    He'll use everyone, that means he's not playing someone you think should be playing... every day.

    It's a reality that it will happen and it's a reality it will peeve you, me, and someone else... and don't expect him to all of the sudden not look at the game from the players POV, because they see it like he does, and that's all that matters to him, not how we see it.

    The real question is how does the FO see it?

  7. #6
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Melbourne, FL
    Posts
    4,838

    Re: "Everybody is trying to get their numbers"

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    If there were ever a doubt that he's a player's manager, there you go. Nothing like a manager showing his players than their individual stat lines trump what's best for the organization.
    Okay... explain how benching Votto, Bruce, Phillips or Stubbs -- the specific players he mentioned, all of whom are going to be regulars next year -- is what's best for the organization.

    Who else is he trying to get numbers for? Nobody. At the other positions that have multiple candidates for next year, it's been a revolving door amongst the guys on the bench for weeks now, about like it should be. Renteria and Janish only play because Cozart can't. Cairo's started one game in the last week. Hernandez is starting today, just his third start in September. He, not Hanigan, is the guy losing time to Mesoraco.

    I don't get the issue here, except for generic Dusty-bashing.
    Not all who wander are lost

  8. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Posts
    1,370

    Re: "Everybody is trying to get their numbers"

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/



    I'm not in a clubhouse, so I can't say how common this logic is, but I can't believe Dusty is so brazen about it. He's basically saying that getting guys to round numbers and positioning them for Free Agency is a higher priority than giving playing time to young players who are key parts of our future.

    If there were ever a doubt that he's a player's manager, there you go. Nothing like a manager showing his players than their individual stat lines trump what's best for the organization.
    Do you want to bench Votto, Bruce, Stubbs or Phillips? Do you think any of those guys would be happy to be benched for a Dave Sappelt tryout? Those are core guys. And yes, they have personal goals. Baseball is a team game, but it's made up of hundreds of individual acts. It isn't like basketball, where a guy going for a personal record could hurt the team. If Bruce sets a goal to drive in 100 runs and he gets there, he's helping the team. Unless, of course, you believe the team would be better with Bruce sitting so we can "see what we have" in Sappelt or Frazier.

    These young guys are playing. I don't get this constant whining about this. All of them are getting opportunities. The only guy who seems to warrant more at-bats is Alonso, and he can't play any position other than first. And Votto should not be benched -- can we agree on that?

    EDIT: IslandRed beat me to it, and said it better than I did.

  9. #8
    The rest is drama. marcshoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    In the woods, with a shovel
    Posts
    5,129

    Re: "Everybody is trying to get their numbers"

    Everybody's trying to get their numbers except for me and my monkey.

  10. #9
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    14,730

    Re: "Everybody is trying to get their numbers"

    Quote Originally Posted by tixe View Post
    Everybody's trying to get their numbers except for me and my monkey.
    "Come on, Come on. Come on, Come on..."


    Seems like having too many position players who projected to the same spots while having a rotation full of question marks was a problem last year at this time. I can't really blame Dusty for that situation.

    The GM could "Make it Easy" by dealing a few of these guys for an arm.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  11. #10
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    35,114

    Re: "Everybody is trying to get their numbers"

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post

    These young guys are playing. I don't get this constant whining about this. All of them are getting opportunities. The only guy who seems to warrant more at-bats is Alonso, and he can't play any position other than first. And Votto should not be benched -- can we agree on that?

    EDIT: IslandRed beat me to it, and said it better than I did.
    The question that spurred it all was "Will Devin Mesoraco catch Volquez tomorrow?" and that is what put Dusty into a tailspin.

    And this will be the 10th game this month. Mesoraco has started TWO. He got plenty of time yesterday, but that was more of a function of Bronson Arroyo absolutely sucking and needing to double switch.

    Some guys are getting playing time. Mesoraco, not as much. And lets be honest, Yonder wasn't getting any playing time until Fred Lewis was taken off the team. I don't want or think Mesoraco should start every day. Mostly because he catches and catchers simply don't go every day. But he should be starting 3 out of 5 times with the other guys each getting a start. The Reds are going with Mesoraco next year as their starting catcher whether Dusty likes it or not. He needs the experience now. He has caught every pitcher on the staff this season outside of Arroyo. So it isn't a lack of familiarity that is keeping him from catching these guys.

  12. #11
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    15,931

    Re: "Everybody is trying to get their numbers"

    You guys are misinterpreting my intent. I understand that there is a very human element to being a team. But, Dusty basically dodged the question by creating a strawman. I've not heard anybody say we should be benching Votto, Phillips or Stubbs. Why did he need to go out of his way to cite those guys and talk about reaching 100 ___s?

    Rather, it's a question of why does Hernandez need to start another game? Will it make him a less attractive FA? How about Cairo? He was signed to be a backup and he can't handle not starting for 30 days? Doesn't Mez need every opportunity to learn the pitchers?

    At the end of the day, I understand that a half dozen extra starts doesn't make a huge difference. And I'm willing to concede that unhappy players probably don't play as well/as hard. I just don't understand the setting of a precedent that says that the inconsequential personal achievement of veterans is on par with developing young talent for next year's success. Are players going to want to reach round numbers anyways? Sure. But why validate? And to the broader point, what does that have to do with a veteran backup utility IF and a platoon catcher on his way to FA getting starts over guys who could be key contributors next year?

    To me, it simply shows that Dusty sees his #1 job as keeping guys happy. And for all I know, maybe that is the way to get the most performance out of a team. But it's never what I was taught by any coach I've ever had.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 09-11-2011 at 01:33 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  13. #12
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Brownsburg, Indiana
    Posts
    15,268

    Re: "Everybody is trying to get their numbers"

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    I'm not sure that helping players get to individual goals isn't what's best for the organization. Do you really think that Frazier, Sappelt, Mesoraco, Alonso will have their development stunted because the get get 60 PA's each this month instead of 80?

    If I'm an MLB player, reaching 100 RBI's or runs scored or 200 K's or any milestone is going to mean a ton to me. It will be something that I can say I did and be proud of for the rest of my life. And it may be irrational, but I would be upset if I only had 99 RBI's instead of 100.

    I want a manager who understands me not only as a player, but as person who will have a life after baseball.
    Okay... explain how benching Votto, Bruce, Phillips or Stubbs -- the specific players he mentioned, all of whom are going to be regulars next year -- is what's best for the organization.

    Who else is he trying to get numbers for? Nobody. At the other positions that have multiple candidates for next year, it's been a revolving door amongst the guys on the bench for weeks now, about like it should be. Renteria and Janish only play because Cozart can't. Cairo's started one game in the last week. Hernandez is starting today, just his third start in September. He, not Hanigan, is the guy losing time to Mesoraco.

    I don't get the issue here, except for generic Dusty-bashing.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  14. #13
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    5,815

    Re: "Everybody is trying to get their numbers"

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post
    Do you want to bench Votto, Bruce, Stubbs or Phillips? Do you think any of those guys would be happy to be benched for a Dave Sappelt tryout? Those are core guys. And yes, they have personal goals. Baseball is a team game, but it's made up of hundreds of individual acts. It isn't like basketball, where a guy going for a personal record could hurt the team. If Bruce sets a goal to drive in 100 runs and he gets there, he's helping the team. Unless, of course, you believe the team would be better with Bruce sitting so we can "see what we have" in Sappelt or Frazier.

    These young guys are playing. I don't get this constant whining about this. All of them are getting opportunities. The only guy who seems to warrant more at-bats is Alonso, and he can't play any position other than first. And Votto should not be benched -- can we agree on that?

    EDIT: IslandRed beat me to it, and said it better than I did.
    I haven't seen anyone in this thread suggest that Votto, Bruce or Phillips should be benched.

    The issue is Hernandez getting playing time over Mesoraco.
    Last edited by Ron Madden; 09-11-2011 at 02:24 PM.

  15. #14
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Melbourne, FL
    Posts
    4,838

    Re: "Everybody is trying to get their numbers"

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    At the end of the day, I understand that a half dozen extra starts doesn't make a huge difference. And I'm willing to concede that unhappy players probably don't play as well/as hard. I just don't understand the setting of a precedent that says that the inconsequential personal achievement of veterans is on par with developing young talent for next year's success.
    I just think there's a balance where we can get the kids plenty of playing time without completely burying guys who have given the team good service and having word get out that Cincinnati is a bad career choice for those who have choices. The organization has generally remade itself into one known as player-friendly and a class act, and it's to its overall long-term benefit, in my opinion. If that means we go with a three-headed catcher this month instead of effectively telling Ramon Hernandez to pack up and hit the road, I can live with that.
    Not all who wander are lost

  16. #15
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    14,730

    Re: "Everybody is trying to get their numbers"

    The same people who said "don't give him away without a good offer" are saying that Ramon shouldn't play at all. Its why I was all for salary relief and a fringe prospect being enough to deal him at the end of August. It would be a non-issue and there would have been plenty of time for Mes to get to know the pitchers.

    This is a GM issue. The Manager can't just bury guys with no PT. If the plan was for Mesoraco to get a lot of time with the pitchers, a deal should have been made. The Reds could have added Corky as a 3rd catcher with little PT and a pre-arranged move where Corky would basically be like an extra coach available to play in emergency situations. This was a simple thing to solve and again the GM didn't come through.
    Last edited by mth123; 09-11-2011 at 03:32 PM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25