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Thread: SEC Football Discussion Thread

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    Re: SEC Football Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    I am in no way saying that Auburn is guilty. I am asking you to consider the situation objectively, and not be astonished and haughty each time someone suggests Auburn football has been less than clean.
    I have examined the issue objectively. I am now asking you to quit focusing upon me and start focusing upon the facts of the issue. But ya, if you want to argue that Auburn is dirty, show us your work. Otherwise don;t be surprised when someone challenges your opinion.


    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    Questionable behavior is rampant in college athletics, and has been demonstrably so for decades. There are numerous independent reports (whether they be recanted or not) suggesting the Auburn program was unscrupulous. For most, this preponderance of evidence taken with the history of NCAA athletics leads to the likelihood of Auburn being dirty.
    The preponderance of the evidence says Auburn is clean. The NCAA addressed this issue specifically. Your argument ignores the most important evidence and gives tremendous weight to things that have either been discredited of contradict established fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    From the inside, you see the scrutiny as a witchhunt. From the outside, it looks like a trend, likely pointing to some sort of guilt.
    No. I see arguments such as these to be baseless. Again-show your proof. Youre basically hand waving and speaking in very broud generalities then reaching a very specific conclusion. It's not surprising that facts poke holes in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    You and all Auburn fans are welcome to act indignantly and question this unwarranted criticism, but don't be surprised given recent history, especially considering the repeated reports emanating from Auburn, that when we see smoke, we think fire.
    And again dont label others as condescending when they criticize your opinion for a lack of support.
    Last edited by jojo; 04-18-2013 at 11:26 AM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: SEC Football Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    The preponderance of the evidence says Auburn is clean. The NCAA addressed this issue specifically. Your argument ignores the most important evidence and gives tremendous weight to things that have either been discredited of contradict established fact.
    Wrong. Evidence exists outside of the NCAA investigation. In fact, the NCAA may be the worst arbiter of guilt.

    Speaking of hand-waving. Facts include two separate incidents of players admitting to illegal activities to two legitimate reporting outfits. I do not care that these players are not willing to corroborate this information after initial publication. I can only imagine the outside pressure they experience after voicing this unpopular account. How do you explain to yourself that those closest to the situation, multiple ex-players, have admitted to wrongdoing?

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    Re: SEC Football Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    Wrong. Evidence exists outside of the NCAA investigation. In fact, the NCAA may be the worst arbiter of guilt.

    Speaking of hand-waving. Facts include two separate incidents of players admitting to illegal activities to two legitimate reporting outfits. I do not care that these players are not willing to corroborate this information after initial publication. I can only imagine the outside pressure they experience after voicing this unpopular account. How do you explain to yourself that those closest to the situation, multiple ex-players, have admitted to wrongdoing?
    Are you suggesting Selena Robert's blog has more weight than an NCAA investigation?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: SEC Football Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    How do you explain to yourself that those closest to the situation, multiple ex-players, have admitted to wrongdoing?
    Pretty easily. They didn't admit wrong doing. You really need to explain why one should treat what Selena Roberts attributed to a player but is unwilling to verify with tapes as absolute fact while one should utterly discount a direct quote by the player to reporters.

    It's a position that clearly explains the trouble youre having. It's worse than treating everything as equal. You're treating the less reliable as the end all.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: SEC Football Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Are you suggesting Selena Robert's blog has more weight than an NCAA investigation?
    I'm suggesting Selena Roberts is a professional journalist who has written for credible publications like the New York Times and Sports Illustrated. Did she jump the gun on the Duke lacrosse story? Yep. Does that discount her ability to ably report and the fact that multiple players discussed improprieties with her? Nope. Taken in combination with the Real Sports revelations (not to mention Cecil), and you have reason to believe the Auburn football program to have been dirty.

    Does it prove it without a doubt (and this, along with the non-findings of the laughably incompetent NCAA, seems to be your case)? Again, nope. But it does suggest, to those willing to consider the possibility (i.e. not you), that the program has been less than scrupulous.

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    Re: SEC Football Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    I'm suggesting Selena Roberts is a professional journalist who has written for credible publications like the New York Times and Sports Illustrated. Did she jump the gun on the Duke lacrosse story? Yep. Does that discount her ability to ably report and the fact that multiple players discussed improprieties with her? Nope. Taken in combination with the Real Sports revelations (not to mention Cecil), and you have reason to believe the Auburn football program to have been dirty.

    Does it prove it without a doubt (and this, along with the non-findings of the laughably incompetent NCAA, seems to be your case)? Again, nope. But it does suggest, to those willing to consider the possibility (i.e. not you), that the program has been less than scrupulous.
    Selena Roberts has a history of hack jobs (how has a career trajectory of matriculating from credible organisations down to now a blog that doesn't apparently have the ability to maintain advertising with her latest hack job)and this is especially so with her past treatment of the Auburn football program which she blames for the reorganization of the journalism department at Auburn. Her latest story has been demonstratably proven innacurrate on multiple fronts factually, and this is even before one entertains her thesis that the justice system and local government are aligned with Auburn University to enrich the athletic department and now seeks to defame McNeil so that people won't talk about Cam.

    Quit calling me biased especially given the sources you're using to buffet your argument. There isn't a single hint of objectivity in your position and its the sources you choose to treat as reliable that indicate this.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: SEC Football Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Pretty easily. They didn't admit wrong doing. You really need to explain why one should treat what Selena Roberts attributed to a player but is unwilling to verify with tapes as absolute fact while one should utterly discount a direct quote by the player to reporters.

    It's a position that clearly explains the trouble youre having. It's worse than treating everything as equal. You're treating the less reliable as the end all.
    It's the confluence of events, jojo. The numerous independent reports of wrongdoing. Maybe one report is the result of some bitter reporter looking to reestablish his name. But logic would dictate that most see this series of events, especially in light of the corrupt environment of college athletics, as likelihood of wrongdoing.

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    Re: SEC Football Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Selena Roberts has a history of hack jobs (how has a career trajectory of matriculating from credible organisations down to now a blog that doesn't apparently have the ability to maintain advertising with her latest hack job)and this is especially so with her past treatment of the Auburn football program which she blames for the reorganization of the journalism department at Auburn. Her latest story has been demonstratably proven innacurrate on multiple fronts factually, and this is even before one entertains her thesis that the justice system and local government are aligned with Auburn University to enrich the athletic department and now seeks to defame McNeil so that people won't talk about Cam.

    Quit calling me biased especially given the sources you're using to buffet your argument. There isn't a single hint of objectivity in your position and its the sources you choose to treat as reliable that indicate this.
    Fine, you're not biased, you're willfully ignorant. If you can't at least entertain others' suspicion, carry on with your head in the sand. Do know that you're not some righteous crusader highlighting others' biases, demanding rigorous journalism, but closer to some conspiracy-theorist clinging to some last hope (ALL THE REPORTS ARE WRONG, IT'S A WITCHHUNT!) shrouded in indigence.

    At this point it isn't about Auburn and a guilty football program. It's about you clutching so tightly to your beliefs that you can't even consider others'. You're welcome to do that.
    Last edited by dabvu2498; 04-19-2013 at 06:59 PM.

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  11. #894
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    Re: SEC Football Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    It's the confluence of events, jojo. The numerous independent reports of wrongdoing. Maybe one report is the result of some bitter reporter looking to reestablish his name. But logic would dictate that most see this series of events, especially in light of the corrupt environment of college athletics, as likelihood of wrongdoing.
    There is no credible confluence of events to support the assertion that there is a pay for play system in place at Auburn University.

    In fact, there is the results of an extension investigation into this very question to support the assertion that there isn't a pay for play system in place at Auburn University.

    Actually the Cam situation would suggest that it isn't that common for a pay for play system to be in place at major football programs. Cecil failed miserably with MSU and the NCAA was forced to announce there was no evidence of such a system at Auburn.

    Really? Major football programs aren't paying Cam Newton-they're hemmorhaging dollars on the likes of players like McNeil?

    You've got a bias that 1) college sports is hopelessly corrupt, and 2) NCAA investigations are untrustworthy. You accept as truth any report that validates those biases. That doesn't sound like objectivity.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: SEC Football Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    There is no credible confluence of events to support the assertion that there is a pay for play system in place at Auburn University.

    In fact, there is the results of an extension investigation into this very question to support the assertion that there isn't a pay for play system in place at Auburn University.

    Actually the Cam situation would suggest that it isn't that common for a pay for play system to be in place at major football programs. Cecil failed miserably with MSU and the NCAA was forced to announce there was no evidence of such a system at Auburn.

    Really? Major football programs aren't paying Cam Newton-they're hemmorhaging dollars on the likes of players like McNeil?

    You've got a bias that 1) college sports is hopelessly corrupt, and 2) NCAA investigations are untrustworthy. You accept as truth any report that validates those biases. That doesn't sound like objectivity.
    You've must've missed the Miami investigation.

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    Re: SEC Football Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Gack View Post
    You've must've missed the Miami investigation.
    So if players do get paid, the NCAA finds it?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  14. #897
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: SEC Football Discussion Thread

    I was listening to Cowherd the other day and he said he had it on record from two sources, one a coach, that Auburn is the dirtiest program in the SEC. He also said that one of the things that Saben was tasked with when he was hired by Alabama was to clean the program up. When it comes to Cowherd there are things he is intune with and college football is one of them.

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    Re: SEC Football Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    I was listening to Cowherd the other day and he said he had it on record from two sources, one a coach, that Auburn is the dirtiest program in the SEC. He also said that one of the things that Saben was tasked with when he was hired by Alabama was to clean the program up. When it comes to Cowherd there are things he is intune with and college football is one of them.
    Clearly not so much with the SEC especially if he is buds wth Bowden.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: SEC Football Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    Fine, you're not biased, you're willfully ignorant. If you can't at least entertain others' suspicion, carry on with your head in the sand. Do know that you're not some righteous crusader highlighting others' biases, demanding rigorous journalism, but closer to some conspiracy-theorist clinging to some last hope (ALL THE REPORTS ARE WRONG, IT'S A WITCHHUNT!) shrouded in indigence.

    At this point it isn't about Auburn and a guilty football program. It's about you clutching so tightly to your beliefs that you can't even consider others'. You're welcome to do that.
    Again, if you want to claim I'm biased and unwilling to entertain facts, then first try presenting some facts. I've asked you to do so (actually point to some specific fact that can be discussed on its merits) several times. Instead you've decided to beat on strawmen (you're the only one talking about witch hunts) and call me names.

    You can express your opinions all you want but you do not have the right to post them unchallenged. If that upsets you, then possibly redszone isn't the place for you.

    You think Auburn is dirty-prove it. But if Selena Roberts and an HBO report (that has been investigated and dismissed by the NCAA) is all you got, you really don't have the juice to call those who disagree with you names.
    Last edited by dabvu2498; 04-19-2013 at 06:59 PM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: SEC Football Discussion Thread

    Personally, I'm glad the UT athletic department is not in heavy debt.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-...30--ncaaf.html

    (And that one of their largest boosters is being investigated by the IRS and FBI.)
    When all is said and done more is said than done.


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