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Thread: Off of ORG: Trade Proposal

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    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Off of ORG: Trade Proposal

    As long as Jocketty's been talking with the Astros, how about he resumes the conversation with a proposed swap of Bronson Arroyo, Edinson Volquez and Ryan Hanigan for Wandy Rodriguez plus $7 million cash?

    Here's why it might work for both teams.

    For the Reds: We can contend in 2012, but to do so, we need a reliable horse to anchor our rotation who can deliver 200 innings of quality pitching. We extended Arroyo last season hoping he could fill that role, after he had pitched 220.1 IP in 2009 and 215.2 IP in 2010 with a sub-3.90 ERA each of those years. He did eke out 199 IP this season, but his ERA ballooned to 5.07 and he set a new club record in surrendering 46 home runs. No doubt, his bout with mono negatively impacted his performance, and we can reasonably expect him to rebound in 2012. But even so, he probably won't eclipse Rodriguez, who has recorded between 191-205 IP over the last three seasons, always maintaining his ERA in a range between 3.02 and 3.60.

    However you want to slice it or quantify performance, Rodriguez has been the superior pitcher over that time span. He has allowed 62 home runs vs. Arroyo's 106. He has collected 537 strikeouts vs. Arroyo's 356. He has accumulated 9.1 WAR vs. Arroyo's 2 WAR.

    Moving forward, Rodriguez can be expected to continue to get the better of Arroyo. The Houston ace is two years younger, and while he's showing signs of slowing down, he's never fallen off a cliff like Arroyo did in 2012.

    For the Astros: After sporting the worst record in all of baseball in 2011, they're a team that seriously needs to rebuild. They put Rodriguez on waivers in August with two goals in mind: To shed his contract and to acquire top prospects in return. No one was willing to deliver said prospects unless the Astros pretty much gave him away for free by underwriting a big chunk of his remaining contract. I'm not privy to the specific offers they received, but I highly doubt they had a chance to land talent as ML-tested as Volquez and Hanigan. Throw in Arroyo and the Astros would get what they need from the Reds -- a close-enough, innings-eating replacement for Rodriguez in Arroyo, a wild-card potential ace in Volquez and a smart, multi-skilled catcher in Hanigan to work with all of the Astros' young arms and shore up the ML's worst team catching (-1.0 WAR, according to Fangraphs) The fact that Arroyo and Volquez have American League experience also would be a plus, because it looks like the Astros could be forcibly moved into the Junior Circuit by 2013, as a condition of the team's pending sale.

    Now, before all of you howl in advance that this trade is impossible because of the poison-pill deferral payments in Arroyo's contract and because we need Hanigan to break in Mesoraco, ponder these particulars:

    * We don't really need Hanigan if we can re-sign Hernandez as Mesoraco's understudy. I don't see why we can't re-sign Clutch Man Monie after holding onto him through this past trading deadline, when he seemed like a goner for good. If Mesoraco's going to get schooled, who's better to serve as the mentor -- a grizzled veteran like Hernandez or a younger competitor who might chafe if he doesn't get 350-400 plate appearances? At his age, Hernandez might be happy and productive with 200-300 plate appearances, especially in Cincy where he seems to have found a groove as Cueto's preferred catcher. The nice part of this trade: We upgrade the rotation without having to deal Grandal.

    * About Arroyo's deferral payments. When he signed his extension with the Reds, he agreed to receive about $7 million annually from 2011-2013 on the condition that he get deferred payments totaling $15 million through 2021. But if he is traded, a poison pill clause takes hold, and the $15 million becomes due immediately. All of us have assumed the poison pill makes it impossible to trade him. But what if he's dealt for Rodriguez, with the Astros agreeing to return $7 million to the Reds?

    I can see that happening because the Astros still would free up $3 million in cash -- enough to cover both Hanigan and Volquez for 2012. Here's why: They give us $7 million and remain on the hook for Arroyo at a $7 million clip for 2012 and 2013, for a grand total of $21 million in payments. But they have shed their $10.5 million obligation to Rodriguez in 2012 and $13.5 million in 2013, or $24 million total.

    Just like Arroyo's poison pill, Rodriguez has a trade clause that has stymied the Astros' abilities to deal him. He's currently signed through 2013 but a club option exists to re-sign him at $13 million in 2014. If he's dealt, though, that club option converts into a player option, meaning any team that acquires him can realistically expect to be on the hook for $36 million over the next three years for his services. If we get him, that's a risk we'd have to be willing to assume. But given their respective ages and levels of performance, I know I'd rather pay 3/36 for Rodriguez than 2/29 for Arroyo moving forward -- especially if the Reds and Astros split the onerous, upfront costs of swallowing these two contracts, their $7 million kick-in buying them a legitimate catcher and a potential ace.

    There's the deal. It's a sausage grinder, but it does seem to address both teams' immediate and longer-range needs in a creative way. If the Astros were going to remain the NL Central, I don't see how this could ever get done, but with them likely to ship out soon to the AL West, I could see it happening. Whether it will is another story.
    I like the idea, I would rather substitute someone else for Hanigan, though. Well thought out.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

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    Re: Off of ORG: Trade Proposal

    The Astros are rebuilding. Why would they want any of those three? They are looking for youth. That trade would never happen. Now watch it go down the day after the WS ends.

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    Re: Off of ORG: Trade Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by texasdave View Post
    The Astros are rebuilding. Why would they want any of those three? They are looking for youth. That trade would never happen. Now watch it go down the day after the WS ends.
    Agreed. The Astros are looking to acquire cheap talent that is under team control for a long time, which makes me skeptical that they'd have any interest in this kind of package. Volquez has some upside potential but he becomes a free agent after 2013 and is going to become fairly expensive. Hanigan is a nice player for a good team but hardly the type of player that a rebuilding team is going to covet and Arroyo is a less attractive version of Wandy. I'd imagine if the Astros are going to pick up $7mil of Wandy's contract that they're going to be looking for a package of prospects that helps in their rebuilding process.

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    Re: Off of ORG: Trade Proposal

    I am not saying it wasn't fair or creative or anything. I just don't feel Houston has much interest in the players they would receive.

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    Re: Off of ORG: Trade Proposal

    Zero chance of that happening....heck zero chance it even being discussed.

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    Member Billy Hamilton's Legs's Avatar
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    Re: Off of ORG: Trade Proposal

    agreed. you have to take an honest look from the other side of the table when making these trade proposals. you can throw in as many guys as you want, but unless they're legitimate, productive ML starters or prospects, the other team has no interest in them. bronson looked like he might be done, volquez went from OD starter to AAA, hanigan is a nice platoon/backup. wandy is an ace or a #2.

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    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: Off of ORG: Trade Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by texasdave View Post
    I am not saying it wasn't fair or creative or anything. I just don't feel Houston has much interest in the players they would receive.
    I agree about the players coming from the Reds.

    I disagree about Arroyo-Wandy contract swap.

    I agree with the original poster that Houston obviously had trouble unloading Wandy because of his contract.

    Arroyo signed for 2 more years for a total of $23.5M. Wandy signed for 3 more years for a total of $37.5M. Wandy's numbers are consistently far better than Arroyo's.

    My problem is that the original poster seemed to be trying to unload 2 of our problems (Arroyo, Volquez), thinking the Astros would want our junk. And Hanigan is signed very reasonably. I don't want to trade him, and I like platooning our catchers.

    Package Arroyo with 1 or 2 decent prospects, and they might be willing to take on Arroyo's contract for 2 years while unloading Wandy's 3 contract (since they're rebuilding anyway). I think that's what you have to do to unload a contract.

    I'd love to pick up Wandy while unloading Arroyo. And then somehow trade for Shields.

    Cueto
    Shields
    Wandy R.
    Leake
    Bailey

    Pretty good rotation there. The first 3, based on their history, should all post sub-4.00 e.r.a.'s, and Leake and Bailey has that ability.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

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    Re: Off of ORG: Trade Proposal

    who would want volquez named the worst pitcher in the national league by the times or arroyo

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    Re: Off of ORG: Trade Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by nux fan View Post
    who would want volquez named the worst pitcher in the national league by the times or arroyo
    There are a number of teams out there that would want both. There are going to be teams that see that EV issues are just a flaw in his delivery and with the right pitching coach those flaws can be corrected. How many poor pitchers has Dave Duncan of the Cards turned into studs.

    As for Bronson again a number of teams would love to have a pitcher who eats innings and shows up every start, especially those in pitchers parks. Again your ability to understand and judge this game lacks in so much.

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    Re: Off of ORG: Trade Proposal

    again your pompous condescending , loyalist views are not appreciated, arroyo is on the downside of his "career" and volquez is a mental case, I would ove to package both of them and your hero stubbs and the result would be addition by subtraction,

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    Plan to be spontaneous Jefferson24's Avatar
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    Re: Off of ORG: Trade Proposal

    This is another situation where some of us Reds fan's think that certain players actually have value when, if fact, they do not.

    The are not going to give up talent for 3 no talents or had talents.
    We only live in patches. - H. G. Wells

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    Re: Off of ORG: Trade Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by nux fan View Post
    again your pompous condescending , loyalist views are not appreciated, arroyo is on the downside of his "career" and volquez is a mental case, I would ove to package both of them and your hero stubbs and the result would be addition by subtraction,
    And again you have no clue what you are talking about, you are a knee jerk reaction fan who can't look past 1 season.

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    Re: Off of ORG: Trade Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by nux fan View Post
    again your pompous condescending , loyalist views are not appreciated, arroyo is on the downside of his "career" and volquez is a mental case, I would ove to package both of them and your hero stubbs and the result would be addition by subtraction,
    Bronson on the "downside" I guess could be true if you think he will win 17-18 games and have a sub 3.00 era next year, but there is no reason not to think he can't have a upper 3 close to 4 era next year with 200+ innings pitched and give the Reds 13-15 victories next year which for any team would take out of their 3/4 guy in their rotation especially in a hitters park like Cincy. As for Stubbs, he needs to cut his K's by about 50-55 and increase his OBP by some which he can do...

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    Re: Off of ORG: Trade Proposal

    zero chance...why would the Astros take on Arroyo's contract?? And to boot he is the worst pitcher in the NL...

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    Re: Off of ORG: Trade Proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by brm7675 View Post
    There are a number of teams out there that would want both. There are going to be teams that see that EV issues are just a flaw in his delivery and with the right pitching coach those flaws can be corrected. How many poor pitchers has Dave Duncan of the Cards turned into studs.

    As for Bronson again a number of teams would love to have a pitcher who eats innings and shows up every start, especially those in pitchers parks. Again your ability to understand and judge this game lacks in so much.
    Teams don't want Bronson. Stop kidding yourself. Not at his contract. Not coming off the year he just put up. Bronson is untradable unless the Reds include either a bunch of cash or bunch of talented prospects.


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