Off of ORG: You're the GM......go get a pitcher

[Vottomatic]

I am not for trading Votto, but if it does happen you better get way more than Romero.

Only 8 American League starting pitchers, with 29 or more starts, had an e.r.a. under 3.00. Romero finished 6th in lowest starter e.r.a.'s. Here is the list: Verlander (Det) 2.40, Weaver (LAA) 2.41, Shields (TB) 2.82, Fister (Det) 2.83, Beckett (Bos) 2.89, Romero (Tor) 2.92, CJ Wilson (Tex) 2.94, Hellickson (TB) 2.95. Of those 8 pitchers, Romero had the 5th lowest batting against with hitters hitting just .216 against him. Romero pitched 49 more innings (225 IP) than hits allowed (176). Current ages? Verlander (28), Hellickson (24), Beckett (31), Weaver (29), Shields (turns 30 this December), CJ Wilson (turns 31 in November), Fister (27), and Romero turns 27 in November. Second youngest of the lowest e.r.a. group with all his numbers trending better in his first 3 seasons, in which he started 29 or more games each season. Not to mention he is reasonably under contract ($5.25M to $7.75M) through 2016. And of the list of 8 pitchers, 5 are in the postseason, and Beckett almost was.

I think they should trade Alonso and Heisey for Shields which should get it done. Then sign someone like Willingham and use Sappelt as the fourth outfielder and Francisco and Frazier could be the 5th and split with Rolen.

The window for this team to win a World Series I think has to happen with Votto so losing Heisey and Alonso hurts but neither are proven. If they got Sheilds and Willingham they would probably not be able to sign Cordero. They could use Chapman in the closer role for the year becaue he will probably be on an innings limit anyways. EV Wood and Bailey can battle for the 4 spot and you could use two as trade bait at the deadline for anything that is needed.

Lineup

1.Phillilps
2.Stubbs
3.Votto
4.Willingham
5.Bruce
6.Rolen/Francisco
7.Mesaroco/Hanigan
8.Cozart

1.Cueto
2.Shields
3.Leake
4.Bailey/Wood/EV
5.Arroyo

I disagree about the window for this team winning in the postseason having to happen with Votto. Tampa lost 11 players last year and returned to the postseason because of their pitching. Giants won it all last year with pitching and a weak offense, although struggled to return this year because of the same weak offense.

Votto may be the key to obtaining THE ACE STARTING PITCHER this team so desperately needs to get to the postseason and win it all. We already have Cueto. Add Romero to Cueto and this team has something. And we have the luxury of Alonso to replace Votto. Even if he's 80% of what Votto is, it will be good enough.

Face it. Reds lead in alot of offensive categories this year and failed to make the postseason. They lead in alot of offensive categories last year, made the postseason, but didn't have the starting pitching to advance. What good is a Votto when clearly the Reds need an ace? And he may be the only trading chip to obtain REASONABLY PRICED top of the line starting pitching, such as an already under contract Ricky Romero.

That is my $.02 cents.

[brm7675]

You could add Wood, Bailey, or Volquez to the trade with Tampa Bay for Shields but they are going to lose BJ Upton in a year so Heisey could be a starting outfielder for them. There payroll is half the Reds and Heisey could be a very valuable player for them. Alonso would start at first base for them or DH. He would also be a great player for them to get. You would be giving them two starters for probably the third best starting pitcher on their team.

I agree that the team can win without Votto for years but I think having a clutch player like him can carry you in the playoffs.

They will have money to sign a free agent if they don't sign Cordero. It may not be enough for Willingham. If Chapman is in AAA learning to be a starter then EV or Boxberger could close. I think Masset could even get the job done even though he struggled this year.

The money saved by not resigning Cordero will just go to cover other players who will be resigned and not near enough to sign a player like Willingham. Are you really confident in putting someone like EV who struggles to throw strikes in teh closer role? As for Boxberger, we really don't know what he can or can't do yet. I would much rather see someone like Bray or even Lecure be given a shot at closer over others.

[Vottomatic]

You could add Wood, Bailey, or Volquez to the trade with Tampa Bay for Shields but they are going to lose BJ Upton in a year so Heisey could be a starting outfielder for them. There payroll is half the Reds and Heisey could be a very valuable player for them. Alonso would start at first base for them or DH. He would also be a great player for them to get. You would be giving them two starters for probably the third best starting pitcher on their team.

I agree that the team can win without Votto for years but I think having a clutch player like him can carry you in the playoffs.

They will have money to sign a free agent if they don't sign Cordero. It may not be enough for Willingham. If Chapman is in AAA learning to be a starter then EV or Boxberger could close. I think Masset could even get the job done even though he struggled this year.

What would be hilarious is if Walt and Bob decided to suddenly shock the baseball world, enlarge the payroll in surprising fashion, trade Votto for an ace, and trade some others for Sanchez.

1. Shock the world and sign CJ Wilson as a free agent, expanding payroll upwards of $100M.

2. Shock the world and trade Votto for Ricky Romero.

3. Shock the world and trade a couple of players for Jonathan Sanchez.

Rotation:

Romero
Wilson
Cueto
Sanchez
Leake

Arroyo to the bullpen with his rubber arm.

You could count on me buying tickets for 20 or 30 games if they did something like that.

What would be even funnier is after trading Votto, they signed Pujols as a free agent to play 1B.

I'd laugh hysterically while envisioning another World Series title.

Cue brm in 2 seconds.........wait for it........wait for it............boom! IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. WALT WON'T DO ANYTHING!!!!!

[brm7675]

What would be hilarious is if Walt and Bob decided to suddenly shock the baseball world, enlarge the payroll in surprising fashion, trade Votto for an ace, and trade some others for Sanchez.

1. Shock the world and sign CJ Wilson as a free agent, expanding payroll upwards of $100M.

2. Shock the world and trade Votto for Ricky Romero.

3. Shock the world and trade a couple of players for Jonathan Sanchez.

Rotation:

Romero
Wilson
Cueto
Sanchez
Leake

Arroyo to the bullpen with his rubber arm.

You could count on me buying tickets for 20 or 30 games if they did something like that.

What would be even funnier is after trading Votto, they signed Pujols as a free agent to play 1B.

I'd laugh hysterically while envisioning another World Series title.

Cue brm in 2 seconds.........wait for it........wait for it............boom! IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. WALT WON'T DO ANYTHING!!!!!

Why do you think the Jays would want Votto? Given the need the Yankees have for starting pitching do you think any other team really has a shot at Wilson? As for Sanchez, don't know it all depends on what the Giants need and if we have those players that fit their need.

[Vottomatic]

Why do you think the Jays would want Votto? Given the need the Yankees have for starting pitching do you think any other team really has a shot at Wilson? As for Sanchez, don't know it all depends on what the Giants need and if we have those players that fit their need.

Hence the words "SHOCK THE WORLD".

Is it your job to refute and dismiss every idea on this board????

I think it was pretty obvious my post was written with tongue in cheek, firmly knowing that the Reds couldn't afford or beat the wealthy teams out.

Again, that's why it was a shock the world post.

[texasdave]

Is it your job to refute and dismiss every idea on this board????

[brm7675]

Hence the words "SHOCK THE WORLD".

Is it your job to refute and dismiss every idea on this board????

I think it was pretty obvious my post was written with tongue in cheek, firmly knowing that the Reds couldn't afford or beat the wealthy teams out.

Again, that's why it was a shock the world post.

Well you keep pushing this idea of dealing Votto to the Jays, and I just wonder why you think they would want a 2 year rental and be willing to give up their young pitching for it?

[nux fan]

well you keep answering posters with your sphinx like naivite and deference to the genius of walt and baker, those two crackpots who steered this august club to third place,, your curmudgeoin like refractory knee jerk disagreements are maniacal, trade yourself for stubbs

[brm7675]

well you keep answering posters with your sphinx like naivite and deference to the genius of walt and baker, those two crackpots who steered this august club to third place,, your curmudgeoin like refractory knee jerk disagreements are maniacal, trade yourself for stubbs

[Redleg]

I don't think the reds will trade Votto this offseason. They want fans in the seats and trading Votto for Romero(whom most fans don't know) would not be a good way to sell tickets. Romero would be a good pitcher to get. If you gave them Alonso what else do you think they would want. Alonso, Wood, Hamilton, would that be enough or too much.

[Vottomatic]

Well you keep pushing this idea of dealing Votto to the Jays, and I just wonder why you think they would want a 2 year rental and be willing to give up their young pitching for it?

Okay. I'll bite.

My answer: I don't.

But.....

My reasons the Jays might consider it:
1. Toronto is Joey's childhood favorite team and his home country team.
2. From things I've read, and just using my gut feeling, and factoring in that alot of players dream of playing for the professional team in the city they grew up in or rooting for, I think Joey is interested in going home when he is a free agent. And other comments he's made, reading between the lines, he doesn't necessarily like the idea of going to New York or Boston.
3. Jays have an abundance of good pitching either already at the major league level or in the pipeline. Did I research their entire farm system? No. I read 2 end of season analysis of the Jays system and their current needs. Both recommended they trade their abundance of pitching to fill other needs. They have the pitching. They need hitting according to these reports.
4. Jays are young all over except for Bautista, and maybe Lind. Takes awhile to grow up and put it together.
5. Jays play in the same division as Red Sox, Yankees, and Rays. Probably the most competitive division in baseball. Votto with Bautista behind him would be pretty impressive offensively.
6. Because the Jays are probably several years from contending, they can afford to give up their ace. And they have several potential aces down the road, ala Cueto, who are developing well enough.
7. You have to give value to get value.
8. I think Joey would be willing to sign an extension with Toronto, unlike the Reds. Don't ask me while. Purely a gut feeling. But you'll still ask me why for some unknown reason.

It's all a gut feeling.

And I think pitching is the way to go for the Reds as I've argued over and over and over on these threads. Rays and Giants are perfect examples.

[brm7675]

Okay. I'll bite.

My answer: I don't.

But.....

My reasons the Jays might consider it:
1. Toronto is Joey's childhood favorite team and his home country team.
2. From things I've read, and just using my gut feeling, and factoring in that alot of players dream of playing for the professional team in the city they grew up in or rooting for, I think Joey is interested in going home when he is a free agent. And other comments he's made, reading between the lines, he doesn't necessarily like the idea of going to New York or Boston.
3. Jays have an abundance of good pitching either already at the major league level or in the pipeline. Did I research their entire farm system? No. I read 2 end of season analysis of the Jays system and their current needs. Both recommended they trade their abundance of pitching to fill other needs. They have the pitching. They need hitting according to these reports.
4. Jays are young all over except for Bautista, and maybe Lind. Takes awhile to grow up and put it together.
5. Jays play in the same division as Red Sox, Yankees, and Rays. Probably the most competitive division in baseball. Votto with Bautista behind him would be pretty impressive offensively.
6. Because the Jays are probably several years from contending, they can afford to give up their ace. And they have several potential aces down the road, ala Cueto, who are developing well enough.
7. You have to give value to get value.
8. I think Joey would be willing to sign an extension with Toronto, unlike the Reds. Don't ask me while. Purely a gut feeling. But you'll still ask me why for some unknown reason.

It's all a gut feeling.

And I think pitching is the way to go for the Reds as I've argued over and over and over on these threads. Rays and Giants are perfect examples.

But if you are the Jays unless you can get a guarentee from Votto on the extension before the deal are you willing to risk it? Also, is this Romero kid fair value back in return and how do the Reds "sell" it to their very fickle fan base that you are dealing your MVP for just 1 player and someone I doubt most fans know?

[Vottomatic]

Well you keep pushing this idea of dealing Votto to the Jays, and I just wonder why you think they would want a 2 year rental and be willing to give up their young pitching for it?

Simply, hometown stud goes home and signs an extension with his favorite childhood hometown team. Is that a good enough answer for you?

[Vottomatic]

But if you are the Jays unless you can get a guarentee from Votto on the extension before the deal are you willing to risk it? Also, is this Romero kid fair value back in return and how do the Reds "sell" it to their very fickle fan base that you are dealing your MVP for just 1 player and someone I doubt most fans know?

I don't think it matters. Fans didn't come out enough to suit ownership this year after winning the division. Obviously the fans don't care that much.

And if they stand pat, it's more of the same next season.

I say pattern themselves after the Giants and Rays and go for quality pitching.

And if they can secure and trade for another top starting pitcher without giving up Votto, I'm all for it. I just don't think they will be able to.

[brm7675]

I don't think it matters. Fans didn't come out enough to suit ownership this year after winning the division. Obviously the fans don't care that much.

And if they stand pat, it's more of the same next season.

I say pattern themselves after the Giants and Rays and go for quality pitching.

And if they can secure and trade for another top starting pitcher without giving up Votto, I'm all for it. I just don't think they will be able to.

So you are saying screw the fan base, possibly piss them off and deal an MVP for 1 player who overall is not "that great" of an improvement over Cueto or Leake?