Turn Off Ads?
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 20

Thread: The Re-Emergence of the 3 Inning Closer

  1. #1
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    17,584

    The Re-Emergence of the 3 Inning Closer

    Not currently, but I think we'll see it again very soon. Granted, this is just my opinion, but the game of baseball is cyclical, and we see a team attempt something that works, then every other team follows suit until one team out there decides to try something else to be different from the others, and when that works other teams adopt that method.

    I think that as new general managers enter the game, there will be that one guy who will eventually say, why am I paying $4 million to a middle relief pitcher who only pitches 70 innings a year? I could use an extra bat on my bench, and we have a glut of good starting pitchers and prospects, I could put this one guy at the back of my bullpen for 2-3 innings a few times a week and we could cut down on needing that extra pitcher while providing an extra bench spot for someone.

    Like I said, I don't see it happening in the next couple seasons, but I can see this type of thinking creep back into the game, and it's something that personally, I'm looking forward to.
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    6,057

    Re: The Re-Emergence of the 3 Inning Closer

    I wish they would develop pitchers who could go 2-3 innings.....closer, middle man....whatever.

    Save money on bad middle relief by having guys, effective guys who can go 2-3 innings about every other day or 2. Basically a bullpen that had a Stan Belinda, Scott Sullivan, Danny Graves (when he was good in middle relief).....could save you almost 2 roster spots to use for the bench.

    I know in Dayton they have used about 2-3 of their guys about 2 innings almost every time. Maybe they are hoping to develop more than just 1 inning guys. Hate that concept.....but Dusty loves it to begin with as a way to use his bullpen.

  4. #3
    We Need Our Myths reds1869's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Overlooking GABP
    Posts
    4,478

    Re: The Re-Emergence of the 3 Inning Closer

    I know he is moving to the rotation, but I've always thought Chapman would be perfect for that role.

  5. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta, aka, the most prosperous city in the world.
    Posts
    10,759

    Re: The Re-Emergence of the 3 Inning Closer

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger View Post

    Save money on bad middle relief by having guys, effective guys who can go 2-3 innings about every other day or 2. Basically a bullpen that had a Stan Belinda, Scott Sullivan, Danny Graves (when he was good in middle relief).....could save you almost 2 roster spots to use for the bench.
    You are talking about a reliever logging 160 plus innings.

    The history has not been kind on relievers who have been used that much.

  6. #5
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    43,297

    Re: The Re-Emergence of the 3 Inning Closer

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    You are talking about a reliever logging 160 plus innings.

    The history has not been kind on relievers who have been used that much.
    True, and there have not been many of them at all, here's the guys who did it with 150 IP

    Code:
    INNINGS PITCHED >= 150
    GAMES STARTED <= 0
    
    
    1    Mike Marshall             2   
    T2   Dick Radatz               1   
    T2   Eddie Fisher              1   
    T2   Jim Konstanty             1   
    T2   Bill Campbell             1   
    T2   Hoyt Wilhelm              1   
    T2   Bob Stanley               1   
    T2   John Hiller               1   
    T2   Mark Eichhorn             1
    And the guys who did it with between 1 and 5 games started

    Code:
    INNINGS PITCHED >= 150
    GAMES STARTED BETWEEN 1 AND 5
    
    
    T1   Andy Karl                 1   
    T1   Jack Lamabe               1   
    T1   Allan Russell             1   
    T1   Lindy McDaniel            1   
    T1   Wilbur Wood               1   
    T1   Clay Carroll              1   
    T1   Garland Braxton           1

  7. #6
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    34,549

    Re: The Re-Emergence of the 3 Inning Closer

    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    Not currently, but I think we'll see it again very soon. Granted, this is just my opinion, but the game of baseball is cyclical, and we see a team attempt something that works, then every other team follows suit until one team out there decides to try something else to be different from the others, and when that works other teams adopt that method.

    I think that as new general managers enter the game, there will be that one guy who will eventually say, why am I paying $4 million to a middle relief pitcher who only pitches 70 innings a year? I could use an extra bat on my bench, and we have a glut of good starting pitchers and prospects, I could put this one guy at the back of my bullpen for 2-3 innings a few times a week and we could cut down on needing that extra pitcher while providing an extra bench spot for someone.

    Like I said, I don't see it happening in the next couple seasons, but I can see this type of thinking creep back into the game, and it's something that personally, I'm looking forward to.
    It would probably only happen in the AL where you don't have to pinch hit for the pitcher. But I don't see it happening in either league. The game - as most sports - has always evolved more towards specialization not less.
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rally-...24872650873160

  8. #7
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Right Down Broadway
    Posts
    18,713

    Re: The Re-Emergence of the 3 Inning Closer

    If anything, you will see managers staying with a reliever for 2 innings, and not going to his closer automatically. Starting to see some of that in the postseason. Leyland stuck with Coke the other night instead of bringing in Valverde, who had been roughed up the night before.
    Can't win with 'em

    Can't win without 'em

  9. #8
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    17,584

    Re: The Re-Emergence of the 3 Inning Closer

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    It would probably only happen in the AL where you don't have to pinch hit for the pitcher. But I don't see it happening in either league. The game - as most sports - has always evolved more towards specialization not less.
    I'll agree that it's been this way over the last 20 years or so, but I feel that eventually, we'll have a young hotshot GM come into this game and look at this model and feel that it doesn't make sense. Why pay a guy $400,00 to $1,000,000 whose job it is to come in to a game every few days to pitch to one guy? Are the percentages that much greater that a specialist gets that guy out as opposed to the middle reliever who's already in the game? Chances are, the percentage doesn't compare to the additional payroll for a guy with such a minimal number of innings pitched over a complete season, and that hotshot GM will try a different method.
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  10. #9
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    34,549

    Re: The Re-Emergence of the 3 Inning Closer

    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    I'll agree that it's been this way over the last 20 years or so, but I feel that eventually, we'll have a young hotshot GM come into this game and look at this model and feel that it doesn't make sense. Why pay a guy $400,00 to $1,000,000 whose job it is to come in to a game every few days to pitch to one guy? Are the percentages that much greater that a specialist gets that guy out as opposed to the middle reliever who's already in the game? Chances are, the percentage doesn't compare to the additional payroll for a guy with such a minimal number of innings pitched over a complete season, and that hotshot GM will try a different method.
    Tony LaRussa is going to slap you in the face.

    You have a point but teams are willing to pay these guys that because they get the job done. Perhaps a Sam LeCure can get lefties out as often as Bill Bray can at a fraction of the cost. But when he doesn't, the manager and general manager is going to hear about it. The manager is an idiot because he put LeCure in the game to get a lefty out and the GM is an idiot because he hired the manager who wouldn't have a lefty facing a lefty.

    Now, I don't think that you need to have lefty on lefty and vice versa at every opportunity in the late innings but it does work. Now what a smart front office does is to get pitchers to fill those spots at a bargain. Teams like Tampa Bay pretty much rolls over their whole bullpen every year rather than pay these players a premium.
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rally-...24872650873160

  11. #10
    Member Spitball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    5,628

    Re: The Re-Emergence of the 3 Inning Closer

    I like the idea, but doubt it will really happen.

    First, as WOY said, relief pitchers who pitch 100 plus innings have had a history of not lasting as long. Who wants to sign a pitcher to a multi-year contract and burn him out?

    Second, a three inning relief stint would require more time between appearances. Closers are often needed on back to back days.

    Also, I think it would require a sidearm slinger like Scott Sullivan or a knuckleballer to pitch that many innings. Typically, teams prefer a hard thrower in the closer role.

    Quote Originally Posted by savafan
    I think that as new general managers enter the game, there will be that one guy who will eventually say, why am I paying $4 million to a middle relief pitcher who only pitches 70 innings a year? I could use an extra bat on my bench, and we have a glut of good starting pitchers and prospects, I could put this one guy at the back of my bullpen for 2-3 innings a few times a week and we could cut down on needing that extra pitcher while providing an extra bench spot for someone.
    See Theo Epstein when he first took over the Red Sox in 2002. This is close to his initial philosophy. It didn't last long.

    I like the thinking outside the box, though. Personally, I'd rather see a return to the "fireman" who came into the game with runners on base to "put out the fire" at a crucial time. The best reliever used strategically at the most opportune time.
    "I am your child from the future. I'm sorry I didn't tell you this earlier." - Dylan Easton

  12. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    6,057

    Re: The Re-Emergence of the 3 Inning Closer

    You cannot tell me that you cannot have at least 3 guys who can go close to 2 innings ......OK not every game or every other game....but at least have 3 guys who can do that once out of every 3 games?

    I never said that it would be someone that would end up throwing 160 innings either. More like 70-75 games and close to 90-110 innings.

    Some guys, just like starters.....can or are more effective throwing more than others. You need 2 long guys out of the bullpen and I do not mean guys that come in around the 3rd or 4th innings. I mean someone who can close down a game going 2 innings when your closer needs a rest. When a starter can only go 5-6, which is not happening as much around baseball as it was earlier last decade...but can with a weak starting staff like this, blow your bullpen out when you only pitch the relievers 1 inning or 0.2....or are just basically trained to not do much more to begin with.

    You cannot do what TB did every other year either..... I used to take the Reds ability to build a bullpen for years. Seems like that is what they were good at...right through the 80's and into the beginning of the 2000's. Not the case anymore.

  13. #12
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    43,297

    Re: The Re-Emergence of the 3 Inning Closer

    It's not the innings that kill the arm it's the appearances, getting up to be ready, not going in, going in for a batter, 100 games plus for a pitcher and 100 IP would be what would be better than a 160 IP guy, what would be great is a staff with two work horses like that

  14. #13
    Hey Cubs Fans RFS62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    16,599

    Re: The Re-Emergence of the 3 Inning Closer

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    It's not the innings that kill the arm it's the appearances, getting up to be ready, not going in, going in for a batter, 100 games plus for a pitcher and 100 IP would be what would be better than a 160 IP guy, what would be great is a staff with two work horses like that

    True. And a veteran manager can save many innings by not getting guys up too much, whether he uses them or not.
    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    ~ Mark Twain

  15. #14
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    43,297

    Re: The Re-Emergence of the 3 Inning Closer

    Quote Originally Posted by RFS62 View Post
    True. And a veteran manager can save many innings by not getting guys up too much, whether he uses them or not.
    Ahh the human element comes in, yeah rubber arm guy like that needs a manager that doesn't fret and lets it evolve naturally that is an issue with so much money in the game. In my strat league last year I had a loogie that I had in 101 games, for 70 odd innings, problem is he still sucked

  16. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta, aka, the most prosperous city in the world.
    Posts
    10,759

    Re: The Re-Emergence of the 3 Inning Closer

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger View Post
    I never said that it would be someone that would end up throwing 160 innings either. More like 70-75 games and close to 90-110 innings.
    70-75 games and 90-110 innings isn't the same as going 2-3 inning every second day or so (which is what you said).

    70-75 games and 100 innings is what guys like Sullivan were doing. And it's still 1 inning more often than not.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25