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View Poll Results: Who is Redszone's #4 prospect?

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  • RHP Brad Boxberger

    10 10.75%
  • RHP Dan Corcino

    13 13.98%
  • SS Zack Cozart

    23 24.73%
  • UT Todd Frazier

    0 0%
  • SS Billy Hamilton

    32 34.41%
  • RHP Kyle Lotzkar

    0 0%
  • OF Yorman Rodriguez

    1 1.08%
  • OF Dave Sappelt

    0 0%
  • 1B Neftali Soto

    4 4.30%
  • RHP Robert Stephenson

    8 8.60%
  • 2B Ron Torreyes

    1 1.08%
  • other (please list below)

    1 1.08%
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Thread: Who is Redszone's #4 prospect?

  1. #61
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #4 prospect?

    It's not that he turns all outs into singles, et al, it's that he turns some of them into each.

    That's not hyperbole.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  3. #62
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #4 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    It's not that he turns all outs into singles, et al, it's that he turns some of them into each.

    That's not hyperbole.
    He hasn't turned a single double into a HR. I have seen both of his inside the park home runs. Neither was a double for anyone besides a zombie.

  4. #63
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #4 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Were you alive in the 1970's? Virtually every leadoff hitter in baseball during that decade had similar numbers. Larry Bowa is a SS that couldn't quite steal all those bases, but all the other numbers work out. There's a bunch of those guys, in fact.

    But, let's just focus on the 1970s era SS. Let's also focus on a 610 or less OPS, with 50+ SBs. Let's also limit it to SS and leadoff hitters, just for fun. I've still got:
    Omar Moreno
    Ron LeFlore
    Maury Wills
    Bert Campenaris
    Ozzie Smith
    to start with. I know Delino Deshields had a season close to this in the mid 90's (as he was on my fantasy team).

    Not that this means anything...
    I didn't look up their stats. I'm just gonna take your word that more players that I expected have had 50 sb while having a .240/.300/.300 line. One thing that's worth noting though is that the expectations, offensively, for the shortstop position have changed over the last 30 years. I'm not sure that a player in todays game would accumulate enough abs to have a shot at 50 sb if their ops was .610 or less. Weak hitting starting shortstops were pretty common back then. They're not now. More is expected from them offensively. Now, Dusty might give him 500+ abs so he'd have a shot at 50 sb. But, I'm not sure I'd want that to happen if he had a .240/.300/.300 line. There's a reason that those kind of players aren't as likely to get 500+ abs anymore.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  5. #64
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #4 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    He hasn't turned a single double into a HR. I have seen both of his inside the park home runs. Neither was a double for anyone besides a zombie.
    On April 19 of this year, Hamilton was timed, in his second inside the park homer, at 14.2 seconds from home to home. (This confirms your own time of 14.18 from home to home on a botched ground rule double from the second game of the season.)

    Bengie Molina was timed to second base at 9.7 seconds in 2006. (That's actually the only time I was able to find at the major league level from home to second base.) If he'd tried to stretch it into a triple, he'd have been out. So, if he were a good runner, he'd have had to stay at second base. On the same ball hit by Hamilton.

    While I'm not certain, I'm pretty sure none of the Molina brothers are zombies. Bengie included.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  6. #65
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #4 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    On April 19 of this year, Hamilton was timed, in his second inside the park homer, at 14.2 seconds from home to home. (This confirms your own time of 14.18 from home to home on a botched ground rule double from the second game of the season.)

    Bengie Molina was timed to second base at 9.7 seconds in 2006. (That's actually the only time I was able to find at the major league level from home to second base.) If he'd tried to stretch it into a triple, he'd have been out. So, if he were a good runner, he'd have had to stay at second base. On the same ball hit by Hamilton.

    While I'm not certain, I'm pretty sure none of the Molina brothers are zombies. Bengie included.
    Did Molina slow up as he reached second? Even so, Molina may have actually made it to third base. You need to remember, it is slower from home to first than from first to second because you are already moving once you get to first. Also, you are suggesting that the catcher caught the ball on Hamilton's HR as he crossed the plate. But he didn't. The ball was still out there in play. There would have been more time.

  7. #66
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #4 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfandan View Post
    I didn't look up their stats. I'm just gonna take your word that more players that I expected have had 50 sb while having a .240/.300/.300 line. One thing that's worth noting though is that the expectations, offensively, for the shortstop position have changed over the last 30 years. I'm not sure that a player in todays game would accumulate enough abs to have a shot at 50 sb if their ops was .610 or less. Weak hitting starting shortstops were pretty common back then. They're not now. More is expected from them offensively. Now, Dusty might give him 500+ abs so he'd have a shot at 50 sb. But, I'm not sure I'd want that to happen if he had a .240/.300/.300 line. There's a reason that those kind of players aren't as likely to get 500+ abs anymore.
    Perhaps, perhaps not.

    I simply claimed that, if given an entire season, at his major league floor, I could see a Larry Bowa/ Omar Moreno type of career.

    Now, that's not what I claimed his career floor would be, only what he would put up at the major league level. Think Steve Jeltz with speed.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
    -- Leo Durocher

  8. #67
    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #4 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Perhaps, perhaps not.

    I simply claimed that, if given an entire season, at his major league floor, I could see a Larry Bowa/ Omar Moreno type of career.

    Now, that's not what I claimed his career floor would be, only what he would put up at the major league level. Think Steve Jeltz with speed.
    Ok, I guess we could say that it's a possible floor even though it's not likely to happen.

    I just think you're expecting alot out of the guy. That's all.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  9. #68
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #4 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Did Molina slow up as he reached second? Even so, Molina may have actually made it to third base. You need to remember, it is slower from home to first than from first to second because you are already moving once you get to first. Also, you are suggesting that the catcher caught the ball on Hamilton's HR as he crossed the plate. But he didn't. The ball was still out there in play. There would have been more time.
    Okay, have it your way. Were Bengie Molina to have run when Hamilton hit his inside the park home run, he may have been able to stretch said inside the park homer into a triple.

    If the ball were hit in exactly the same place. Against the same team. In the same park. At the same time of day. If he were to be moving from the beginning.

    But I'm still pretty sure he's not he's not a zombie.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
    -- Leo Durocher

  10. #69
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #4 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfandan View Post
    Ok, I guess we could say that it's a possible floor even though it's not likely to happen.

    I just think you're expecting alot out of the guy. That's all.
    I'm not expecting anything.

    I said he had that ceiling. It's not an expectation. It's best case scenario.

    I think he'll eventually turn out to be extremely similar to Dee Gordon.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
    -- Leo Durocher

  11. #70
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    Re: Who is Redszone's #4 prospect?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Some guys that come to mind when I try to picture Billy Hamilton's career: Otis Nixon, Delino Deshields, Tony Womack, Vince Coleman, Omar Morena, Willie McGee. Some useful players there, but more fun than good.
    I think it all comes down to contact rate. If Hamilton can develop into a good to great contact hitter, he'll have significant value. If he keeps striking out 20+ percent of the time as he moves up the ladder, then we've got nothing more than a flashy marketing tool. I hope he figures it out, but in no way should we be counting on it.


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