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Thread: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

  1. #736
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    I was just curious after his reaction, no Matt Millen on the list.

    More sociological cult-like reactions.
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  3. #737
    Go Reds Go! UKFlounder's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Thanks.

    I may have misunderstood the post when I first read it. I see what you're saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by KoryMac5 View Post
    Not defending these folks but from what I hear from my PA brethren is that most who are still in support of Paterno don't believe everything is out there yet. They feel at some point information will be released that helps Paterno's cause.

  4. #738
    Member top6's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    That letter is insane. So they think there are some facts out there that, once revealed, will exonerate "Joe," but they can't tell us what they are? The references to "due process" are meaningless as Paterno has not been charged with any crimes. The grand jury testimony and his own testimony make it pretty clear what he did and didn't do. It wasn't a crime, but it wasn't the right thing to do either. I think the time to release this letter would be after these heretofore unknown facts are revealed, not now.

    The fact that they think the "rush to judgment" here is a rush to judge all things Penn State just shows that one person at PSU had become way too important and powerful.

    I agree with the reference to this sounding like a cult. They are basically choosing to believe in the mythical "Joe" based on blind faith in his goodness. They obviously don't know these alleged exonerating facts, but just choose to believe they exist because to believe otherwise would throw their belief-systems into chaos. It's profoundly messed up.

  5. #739
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    The main thing I gained from the letter was a reminder that Tim Manoa went to PSU.

    I get their point, but I wouldn't have signed it because it's not a good cause. I can't imagine any set of facts coming to light that would excuse Joe's lack of action.
    When all is said and done more is said than done.

  6. #740
    Kmac5 KoryMac5's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Folks defending Paterno state that in meeting with Schultz he felt that he was informing police. Schultz met with the campus police chief weekly and had knowledge of the 1998 report that the DA failed to prosecute due to what he felt was a lack of evidence.

    My problem with Paterno has always been and always will be that he did not follow up with Schultz to see what had been done with the Grad asst's report.

    As far as the letter goes Paterno was at Penn State for 61 yrs. Anytime you are part of a community for that long and have done that much good you are going to have blind loyalty to that person. Eventually after the trial is over and Joe is called to the stand to testify I think some of that loyalty will eventually erode.
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  7. #741
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by KoryMac5 View Post
    Folks defending Paterno state that in meeting with Schultz he felt that he was informing police. Schultz met with the campus police chief weekly and had knowledge of the 1998 report that the DA failed to prosecute due to what he felt was a lack of evidence.

    My problem with Paterno has always been and always will be that he did not follow up with Schultz to see what had been done with the Grad asst's report.

    As far as the letter goes Paterno was at Penn State for 61 yrs. Anytime you are part of a community for that long and have done that much good you are going to have blind loyalty to that person. Eventually after the trial is over and Joe is called to the stand to testify I think some of that loyalty will eventually erode.
    Which is why Schultz and Curley are the real villains here. It's not the football coach's job to follow up on child abuse allegations. Even if he had, my guess is he would have been told that their investigation determined that no crime was committed and that's why they didn't do more (like report it to officials outside of the university).

    He reported it like he should have. Campus police was told by having reported it to these two men. From there Curley and Schultz screwed up.

  8. #742
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Which is why Schultz and Curley are the real villains here. It's not the football coach's job to follow up on child abuse allegations. Even if he had, my guess is he would have been told that their investigation determined that no crime was committed and that's why they didn't do more (like report it to officials outside of the university).

    He reported it like he should have. Campus police was told by having reported it to these two men. From there Curley and Schultz screwed up.
    The problem with this logic is that despite what he was told, he continued to see that man around campus and at football practice, with children, and never followed up (or so we hear that he never followed up). That is why it is also on Paterno, as well as the others mentioned.

  9. #743
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Which is why Schultz and Curley are the real villains here. It's not the football coach's job to follow up on child abuse allegations. Even if he had, my guess is he would have been told that their investigation determined that no crime was committed and that's why they didn't do more (like report it to officials outside of the university).

    He reported it like he should have. Campus police was told by having reported it to these two men. From there Curley and Schultz screwed up.
    Yes, there is a good reason Paterno hadn't been charged with any crimes. However, unlike other people involved with the scandal, Paterno had cultivated a reputation as a moral leader who embodied everything right about the world, when in reality one of the primary people behind his greatest successes on the football field was apparently a serial pedophile and Paterno almost certainly knew it. At the very least, he had reason to believe it was true, but chose to do the bare minimum to investigate (no doubt well aware that uncovering the truth would shatter his and PSU's reputations). These are the actions of a coward.

    I simply cannot understand your continued defense of him. I really don't get it. In this thread you have suggested that the alleged victims of these crimes shouldn't file lawsuits concerning the abuse, that Paterno was part of a culture in the late 1990s and early 2000s that apparently was unaware of the seriousness of child rape, and that you would sign a letter praising Paterno and cautioning everyone to withhold judgment until some as-yet-unknown facts are revealed. Maybe it is in fact the case that Paterno did do something to stop these alleged crimes that we don't know about, and for some reason related to the criminal investigation it cannot be revealed, but there is absolutely no reason to think that is true unless you have some sort of blind faith in the man. I don't understand where that comes from. Is it because he was a good football coach?

  10. #744
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by top6 View Post
    Yes, there is a good reason Paterno hadn't been charged with any crimes. However, unlike other people involved with the scandal, Paterno had cultivated a reputation as a moral leader who embodied everything right about the world, when in reality one of the primary people behind his greatest successes on the football field was apparently a serial pedophile and Paterno almost certainly knew it. At the very least, he had reason to believe it was true, but chose to do the bare minimum to investigate (no doubt well aware that uncovering the truth would shatter his and PSU's reputations). These are the actions of a coward.

    I simply cannot understand your continued defense of him. I really don't get it. In this thread you have suggested that the alleged victims of these crimes shouldn't file lawsuits concerning the abuse, that Paterno was part of a culture in the late 1990s and early 2000s that apparently was unaware of the seriousness of child rape, and that you would sign a letter praising Paterno and cautioning everyone to withhold judgment until some as-yet-unknown facts are revealed. Maybe it is in fact the case that Paterno did do something to stop these alleged crimes that we don't know about, and for some reason related to the criminal investigation it cannot be revealed, but there is absolutely no reason to think that is true unless you have some sort of blind faith in the man. I don't understand where that comes from. Is it because he was a good football coach?
    For the most part I have stayed out of this thread for the a while now. I don't really think its necessarily fair to judge someone before all the facts have come to light. Its easy to become enraged when you don't know all the facts. When you know all the facts sometimes your opinions change. Fact of the matter is too many people had their minds made up about Joe to really care to hear the story play out.

    I think too often as a society we tend to levy a moral responsibility on others that we don't hold ourselves to. I also think that too often we put ourselves in someone else's shoes and make up our minds when the reality is much different. We like to think we would react one way but we have never been put in that situation. I think the topper to this was Bobby Bowden coming out and saying he would have reacted differently. Really Bobby? Its easy to say someone is a scumbag, its less easy to say someone is a scumbag who happens to be your best child or your best friend.

    Its far too easy to ruin someone's image, career, livelihood without taking a moment to consider the other side of the story. There is a large part of me that hopes in the end we are all able to view Joe in a favorable light. I don't know if that will happen but I for one am going to wait until it all comes out before I levy my judgement on Joe.

  11. #745
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The problem with this logic is that despite what he was told, he continued to see that man around campus and at football practice, with children, and never followed up (or so we hear that he never followed up). That is why it is also on Paterno, as well as the others mentioned.
    And according to Sandusky, his keys to the locker room have still not been taken away from him (despite reports to the contrary) to this day.
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  12. #746
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    For the most part I have stayed out of this thread for the a while now. I don't really think its necessarily fair to judge someone before all the facts have come to light. Its easy to become enraged when you don't know all the facts. When you know all the facts sometimes your opinions change. Fact of the matter is too many people had their minds made up about Joe to really care to hear the story play out.
    Geez, what additional facts are you waiting for? We heard McQueary's testimony. We also heard that Joe didn't want to bother anyone because it was on the weekend. And most importantly we know that Sandusky continued to bring kids onto campus, to Penn State practices, and he hosted an overnight football camp on PSU campus for boys. Those are all facts not in dispute. There is no other side to those facts.

    I think too often as a society we tend to levy a moral responsibility on others that we don't hold ourselves to. I also think that too often we put ourselves in someone else's shoes and make up our minds when the reality is much different. We like to think we would react one way but we have never been put in that situation.

    Its far too easy to ruin someone's image, career, livelihood without taking a moment to consider the other side of the story.
    This is all nonsense. Period!
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  13. #747
    Kmac5 KoryMac5's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    Geez, what additional facts are you waiting for? We heard McQueary's testimony. We also heard that Joe didn't want to bother anyone because it was on the weekend. And most importantly we know that Sandusky continued to bring kids onto campus, to Penn State practices, and he hosted an overnight football camp on PSU campus for boys. Those are all facts not in dispute. There is no other side to those facts.



    This is all nonsense. Period!

    People are entitled to an opinion even if you don't necessarily agree with it. To shout it down isn't being very respectful and not in the best interest of conversation.
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  14. #748
    Potential Lunch Winner Dom Heffner's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by KoryMac5 View Post
    People are entitled to an opinion even if you don't necessarily agree with it. To shout it down isn't being very respectful and not in the best interest of conversation.
    With all due respect, that second paragraph that MWM wrote the nonsense comment about does qualify as such.

    It's a pretty lame thing to refocus the wrong of the situation on the people who care about the victims.

    We're projecting our morality onto someone whose actions put a football program over a child who was raped?

    We'd all do the same thing?

    That's nonsense.
    Last edited by Dom Heffner; 12-24-2011 at 10:06 AM.

  15. #749
    Kmac5 KoryMac5's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post
    With all due respect, that second paragraph that MWM wrote the nonsense comment about does qualify as such.

    It's a pretty lame thing to refocus the wrong of the situation on the people who care about the victims.

    We're projecting our morality onto someone whose actions put a football program over a child who was raped?

    We'd all do the same thing?

    That's nonsense.
    Than say that then. The paragraph was nonsense followed by an explanation of why it was such. My original post stands as is, uttering the word nonsense followed by no explanation does nothing to add to the debate but inflame an already senesitive topic.
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  16. #750
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by top6 View Post
    I simply cannot understand your continued defense of him. I really don't get it. In this thread you have suggested that the alleged victims of these crimes shouldn't file lawsuits concerning the abuse, that Paterno was part of a culture in the late 1990s and early 2000s that apparently was unaware of the seriousness of child rape, and that you would sign a letter praising Paterno and cautioning everyone to withhold judgment until some as-yet-unknown facts are revealed. Maybe it is in fact the case that Paterno did do something to stop these alleged crimes that we don't know about, and for some reason related to the criminal investigation it cannot be revealed, but there is absolutely no reason to think that is true unless you have some sort of blind faith in the man. I don't understand where that comes from. Is it because he was a good football coach?
    You misunderstood me then. The alleged victims absolutely should pursue their legal remedies through the courts. I think Sandusky is guilty of a lot of these crimes. I just think think Curley and Schultz are the ones who should have investigated this, not the football coach


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