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Thread: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

  1. #766
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    I guess I'm just more understanding and forgiving than most
    If it were your son as one of Sandusky's victims, how would you feel about Joe Paterno?
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  3. #767
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by dabvu2498 View Post
    If it were your son as one of Sandusky's victims, how would you feel about Joe Paterno?
    I'd be fine with Joe Paterno but I'd be mad as hell at Curley, Schultz and Penn State. I wouldn't expect the football coach to conduct this investigation. He calls plays, recruits and leads football players. I'm convinced that at his age he even delegates most of that. I'd certainly expect him to delegate a sexual molestation case.

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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    That is true yet it is not true. Paterno may have had iconic stature but he still had his bosses who he had to report to and who had the ability to terminate him.
    Realy? Tell that to Spanier and Curley when they tried to get JoePa to quit a few years ago.

    Certainly, Wetherell and Spetman are stronger than Penn State president Graham Spanier and athletic director Tim Curley were after the 2004 season. The Nittany Lions had just finished 4-7 -- their fourth losing season in five years -- when Spanier and Curley went to Paterno's house to ask him to retire... The record certainly seemed to prove that Paterno, who was approaching his 78th birthday, had stayed on too long. But he wouldn't hear of retiring. He shooed Spanier and Curley away, making them look small and weak.
    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09336...#ixzz1hqR9ijkL

    You saw what happen when the board actually did fire him when this Sandusky mess became public. Just think what would have happened back then if Paterno had been forced to resign. Paterno has been a figurehead there for God knows how long. Paterno wasn't going to go unless he died or some scandal happened that he had knowledge of.
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Joe Pa's locker rooms were used to commit heinous crimes against children committed by the iconic right hand man who was intrical in helping orchestrate the zenith of the Joe Pa football era at Linebacker U. Desite graphic revelations of these crimes, this iconic figure was allowed continuous, unsupervised access to all facilities that fall under the supervisory purview of Joe Pa and the scandal shed light on a culture of coverup within the Penn State football program.

    The question isn't whether this scandal should tarnish Joe Pa's legacy. It's how could it not? In fact how would it be possible for his whole career to not be reevaluated?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    The question isn't whether this scandal should tarnish Joe Pa's legacy. It's how could it not? In fact how would it be possible for his whole career to not be reevaluated?
    It doesn't tarnish his legacy in my mind

  7. #771
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    It doesn't tarnish his legacy in my mind
    It will be interesting to see how history books view this whole Penn State chain of events. History has the advantage of allowing the emotion of events to boil off and let the facts stand on their own. I would think these recent events would be part of his legacy, but what the proportions are and the vehemence in which they are stated will only be seen for those still around in the future.

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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    This thing goes much higher than just Paterno. This is a failure at so many levels. We have a DA who failed to prosecute that now is believed dead, a janitor who was told not to say anything or lose his job, a University President that failed to ban a monster from campus, a grad assistant who heard a sexual act in a shower and went home to his dad, a coach, AD, and University VP who basically kept passing the buck, a charitable organization who's head was told about these allegations and did nothing to remove Sandusky from it, and a parent who after learning her son was showering with an older man went to dinner with this man months later. We can make it about Paterno all we want and lord knows he deserves his share of the blame but this thing is much, much bigger than just him.
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    Realy? Tell that to Spanier and Curley when they tried to get JoePa to quit a few years ago.



    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09336...#ixzz1hqR9ijkL

    You saw what happen when the board actually did fire him when this Sandusky mess became public. Just think what would have happened back then if Paterno had been forced to resign. Paterno has been a figurehead there for God knows how long. Paterno wasn't going to go unless he died or some scandal happened that he had knowledge of.
    As it ultimately turned out Spanier and Curley were chicken (expletive). They were the bosses and handled the Paterno situation poorly. Bobby Bowden was "forced" to resign, he made a small stink but you rarely hear a peep from him now. Its not an easy job to do, but they are compensated handsomely.

    If you want to look at Joe Paterno he was a shell of himself over the past decade. People held his age and style against him. PSU had been a power but never really challenged for anything more than a Big 10 title for the past decade. Its something that wouldn't have been accepted at most big time programs. The AD and president allowed their football program to deteriorate because they didn't want to do their job.

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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    As it ultimately turned out Spanier and Curley were chicken (expletive). They were the bosses and handled the Paterno situation poorly. Bobby Bowden was "forced" to resign, he made a small stink but you rarely hear a peep from him now. Its not an easy job to do, but they are compensated handsomely.

    If you want to look at Joe Paterno he was a shell of himself over the past decade. People held his age and style against him. PSU had been a power but never really challenged for anything more than a Big 10 title for the past decade. Its something that wouldn't have been accepted at most big time programs. The AD and president allowed their football program to deteriorate because they didn't want to do their job.
    The point it that Paterno was more powerful than they were. Therefore if he wanted this investigation of Sandusky to go forth it would have. And, if he wanted them to drag their heels and put it on the back burner, they would have - and did. I don't have any proof that Paterno told his "bosses" to put the Sandusky investigation on the back burner but he certainly had the power to do that. I think Paterno also had enough power to pick up the phone and make a call to police headquarters in State College and tell them that he's had a report that Sandusky has been sexually assaulting boys on campus and they should do something about it. And he also could have told them that it shouldn't be investigated and it wouldn't have. Perhaps Paterno did the bare minimum of what he was legally obligated to do. Morally, I believe one phone call from Paterno could have stopped several young boys from being sexually assaulted by Sandusky.
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    It doesn't tarnish his legacy in my mind
    What exactly is his legacy in your mind?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  12. #776
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Joe's legacy will include his loyalty to his friend, and his allegience to football first.

    Unfortunately, those two small things will not hide the elephant in the living room with very many people.
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    I'd be fine with Joe Paterno but I'd be mad as hell at Curley, Schultz and Penn State. I wouldn't expect the football coach to conduct this investigation. He calls plays, recruits and leads football players. I'm convinced that at his age he even delegates most of that. I'd certainly expect him to delegate a sexual molestation case.
    "Delegate" a sexual molestation case? The most powerful man on campus doesn't need to follow through on such serious charges and make sure that this situation is handled well?

    I hope your response is either intentionally or unintentionally disingenuous. A good leader putting "doing the right thing" above "the good of the order" would never delegate such a serious matter and would use his enormous influence to make sure that justice was carried out.

    At least in a healthy organization, that would be the expectation of someone in his position.
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    As it ultimately turned out Spanier and Curley were chicken (expletive). They were the bosses and handled the Paterno situation poorly. Bobby Bowden was "forced" to resign, he made a small stink but you rarely hear a peep from him now. Its not an easy job to do, but they are compensated handsomely.

    If you want to look at Joe Paterno he was a shell of himself over the past decade. People held his age and style against him. PSU had been a power but never really challenged for anything more than a Big 10 title for the past decade. Its something that wouldn't have been accepted at most big time programs. The AD and president allowed their football program to deteriorate because they didn't want to do their job.
    Just a week or so ago you said:
    Its easy to become enraged when you don't know all the facts. When you know all the facts sometimes your opinions change.
    You also said:
    Its far too easy to ruin someone's image, career, livelihood without taking a moment to consider the other side of the story. There is a large part of me that hopes in the end we are all able to view Joe in a favorable light. I don't know if that will happen but I for one am going to wait until it all comes out before I levy my judgment on Joe.
    Are only great football coaches entitles to the privilege of avoiding your judgment until all of the facts come out? Or have more facts come out since last week that allow you to confidently say that "Spanier and Curley were chicken (expletive)" and more to blame than Paterno? I guess I am wondering why you feel so confident judging them.

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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    "Delegate" a sexual molestation case? The most powerful man on campus doesn't need to follow through on such serious charges and make sure that this situation is handled well?

    I hope your response is either intentionally or unintentionally disingenuous. A good leader putting "doing the right thing" above "the good of the order" would never delegate such a serious matter and would use his enormous influence to make sure that justice was carried out.

    At least in a healthy organization, that would be the expectation of someone in his position.
    Paterno's a lot of things but an investigator is not one of them.

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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Paterno's a lot of things but an investigator is not one of them.
    Right. As the leader of a football program, or any organization for that matter, you would think at the very least he would sit Sandusky and McCleary down together and asked what happened....as opposed to pretending nothing happened by practicing conflict avoidance.

    Joe couldn't believe it happened, therefore moved on without allowing due process.
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