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Thread: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

  1. #901
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Um, I'm not sure how you get that, since I basically said he must not have dementia, therefore he cannot be considered to be "telling the truth" simply by "he thinks he's telling the truth due to an altered state of consciousness due to mental defect."
    I see you're still insistent on arguing.

    I'll try to simplify it:

    I agree with you that it's extremely unlikely that he has dementia

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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Fair enough but it's also pointless to discuss it further with people who think JoePa's a liar. We've reached the crux of the disagreement. Some people's opinions of Joe are now so low that they think in addition to not reporting this to police himself that he's also a bold faced liar.

    I do appreciate the honesty of those folks who have given me simple and straight forward answers to my question "do you think he's lying?"

    Kudos to those posters for being straight forward
    I'll answer your question if you will answer mine.

    I think Joe Paterno, like all other human beings, is capable of deception. I therefore cannot take what he says as fact. Do I think he is lying about this particular point? I have no idea. His grand jury testimony - what little amount was recorded - is extremely evasive and vague on the point of what McQuery exactly told him. So either he was being purposely evasive to the grand jury or he couldn't remember the details of the meeting very clearly. While being evasive isn't the same as lying it certainly shows some capacity for deceit.

    My question. Do you think Joe Paterno is incapable of deception?

    Again, even if everything Paterno said is 100% true and he is not leaving anything out, why in the world wouldn't he have asked more questions in the ensuing 9+ years when he saw Sandusky in the company of young boys, especially on the campus and in the athletic facilities. If you were told a friend of yours was a pedaphile would it alarm you if he showed up to your house with strange child in tow? Would you confront him about it or just look the other way?
    Last edited by puca; 01-17-2012 at 04:09 PM.

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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by puca View Post
    I'll answer your question if you will answer mine.

    I think Joe Paterno, like all other human beings, is capable of deception. I therefore cannot take what he says as fact. Do I think he is lying about this particular point? I have no idea. His grand jury testimony - what little amount was recorded - is extremely evasive and vague on the point of what McQuery exactly told him. So either he was being purposely evasive to the grand jury or he couldn't remember the details of the meeting very clearly. While being evasive isn't the same as lying it certainly shows some capacity for deceit.

    My question. Do you think Joe Paterno is incapable of deception?

    Again, even if everything Paterno said is 100% true and he is not leaving anything out, why in the world wouldn't he have asked more questions in the ensuing 9+ years when he saw Sandusky in the company of young boys, especially on the campus and in the athletic facilities. If you were told a friend of yours was a pedaphile would it alarm you if he showed up to your house with strange child in tow? Would you confront him about it or just look the other way?
    There's deception and there's lying. Being vague like in his grand jury testimony could be considered deceptive if he was holding back information, which is possible.

    In his Wash Post interview where he stated "I didn't have an inkling that ...", he was either telling the truth or he was lying. Wording like that leave no room for deception. That wording was very strong and specific. It was not in the least bit vague.

    So to answer your question, perhaps he was being intentionally vague in his grand jury testimony but not in his statement to the Wash Post.

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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    There's deception and there's lying. Being vague like in his grand jury testimony could be considered deceptive if he was holding back information, which is possible.

    In his Wash Post interview where he stated "I didn't have an inkling that ...", he was either telling the truth or he was lying. Wording like that leave no room for deception. That wording was very strong and specific. It was not in the least bit vague.

    So to answer your question, perhaps he was being intentionally vague in his grand jury testimony but not in his statement to the Wash Post.
    You didn't really answer my question, but based on your response I assume you do believe Joe Paterno is capable of deception. Do you believe he is capable of lying?

    By the way I believe Joe said that he had no inkling that Sandusky had 'a dark side' prior to 2002. That still leaves quite a lot of wiggle room in the truth department. What is this 'dark side' that Paterno speaks of? Why does Paterno now apparently believe that Sandusky has this 'dark side'? When did he become convinced of this 'dark side'? Finally once he even had an inkling of this 'dark side' why did he turn his head as Sandusky continued to bring young boys onto the Penn State campus and to Penn State football practices during the next 9+ years?
    Last edited by puca; 01-17-2012 at 05:09 PM.

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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by puca View Post
    You didn't really answer my question, but based on your response I assume you do believe Joe Paterno is capable of deception. Do you believe he is capable of lying?

    By the way I believe Joe said that he had no inkling that Sandusky had 'a dark side' prior to 2002. That still leaves quite a lot of wiggle room in the truth department. What is this 'dark side' that Paterno speaks of? Why does Paterno now apparently believe that Sandusky has this 'dark side'? When did he become convinced of this 'dark side'? Finally once he even had an inkling of this 'dark side' why did he turn his head as Sandusky continued to bring young boys onto the Penn State campus and to Penn State football practices during the next 9+ years?
    I honestly tried to answer your question directly. If you need clarification, please be specific.

    I can't rule out Paterno lying. I suppose it's possible but he's not Pete Rose or Joran Vander Sloot.

    LaVar Arrington, a former player who knows him much better than I do, does not think he's lying. In fact he admits that he was not a buddy of Paterno's but that the guy is a straight shooter and never lied to him:

    While reading Sally Jenkins’s interview with Joe Paterno, I naturally cross-referenced some of his answers with my memories, as I was there from 1997-99 — the time an investigation of Sandusky had taken place. Of course, coaches are more in the know about information pertaining to the team than players, so I can't confirm for coaches but I honestly believe that Paterno did not know of the investigation. State College, Pa., is a very small place. If knowledge of the investigation had surfaced in any way it would have leaked out and everyone would have known, basically the same way everything has unfolded now. I know that players on the team definitely had no knowledge of any information like this. Again, any news was news in our locker room so it would have spread like crazy among players...

    My understanding as it pertained to Jerry Sandusky's retirement, which also was my final year there, was kind of along the same lines as what Paterno said. I was under the impression that after Sandusky realized that Paterno was planning on staying and that he would not have the chance to be head coach, with such a talented group on defense and so many graduating at the end of the year, this would be the perfect time for him to leave. Maybe that's some of my ego involved, but we were a talented group which boasted the No. 1 and No. 2 picks in the 2000 draft along with more draft picks off that defense. So it didn't seem strange at all that he would leave after the 1999 season, especially how active he was with The Second Mile. I figured he'd do that for a few years and then go coach somewhere else...

    It's well documented that Joe and I weren't the best of friends — I was never one of his favorites — but he never lied to me. There's not one time I can recall that Joe Paterno lied to me. Made me mad? Yes. Got under my skin? Yes. Challenged me and pushed me to be more than just a football player? Yes. He never lied to me. As a matter of fact, his sometimes-painful honesty is partly why I'm so blunt in my responses to questions at times.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...fZ3P_blog.html

    I've been chided sarcastically by some around here for not knowing Paterno so I can't say that he's a truthful man and that's correct. I base my opinions on what others who do know him say. If you don't care about my opinion, that's fine but I think LaVar Arrington's opinion should carry some weight.

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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    If you can't rule out the possibility that Paterno is lying then you cannot take what he says as a fact. That is all I was trying to point out. He obviously knew prior to 2002 that Sandusky liked the company of young boys. He undoubtedly knew that Sandusky took boys with him on the road to bowl games. He should have noticed that Sandusky was frequently with a single boy at a time and seemed to have his favorites. It would be odd if he was not aware that Sandusky often showered alone with these boys seeing as it happened in his athletic facilities and in his locker rooms. Whether he had any ikling that Jerry was molesting the boys is open to debate. I agree it is possible that Joe just didn't put two and two together. However once he heard McQuery's story all of the peices should have fit together and he must have understood what had been going on all those years. And yet he turned a blind eye when the same pattern of behavior continued to occur for the next 9+ years.

    For what it is worth I could just as easily find testimonials for Jim Tressel. In my heart I believe Paterno has always meant well, but when it comes to protecting family, friends and reputation I think he, and every other person on the face of the earth, is capable of lying and/or looking the other way.

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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by puca View Post
    If you can't rule out the possibility that Paterno is lying then you cannot take what he says as a fact. That is all I was trying to point out. He obviously knew prior to 2002 that Sandusky liked the company of young boys. He undoubtedly knew that Sandusky took boys with him on the road to bowl games. He should have noticed that Sandusky was frequently with a single boy at a time and seemed to have his favorites. It would be odd if he was not aware that Sandusky often showered alone with these boys seeing as it happened in his athletic facilities and in his locker rooms. Whether he had any ikling that Jerry was molesting the boys is open to debate. I agree it is possible that Joe just didn't put two and two together. However once he heard McQuery's story all of the peices should have fit together and he must have understood what had been going on all those years. And yet he turned a blind eye when the same pattern of behavior continued to occur for the next 9+ years.

    For what it is worth I could just as easily find testimonials for Jim Tressel. In my heart I believe Paterno has always meant well, but when it comes to protecting family, friends and reputation I think he, and every other person on the face of the earth, is capable of lying and/or looking the other way.
    It's not a fact that Paterno was telling the truth. It's a fact that he says ...

    Anyone's testimony is a fact in this case. It's probably my fault for not making myself clear. My point wasn't to say that his version of events definitely happened. My point was that his testimony on the record is a fact in and of itself.

    We do not have any facts on the table that show him to be lying. I have not heard of one person who said that Paterno knew about this prior to 2002. I have not heard any testimony that contradicts Paterno's version of events.

    As for Tressel, we need not rely on character witnesses on his behalf. We know he didn't tell the truth.

    It's possible that over time people may come out of the woodwork and contradict Paterno's version of events but until that happens, we owe him the benefit of the doubt IMO.

    As for your comment that he should have put the pieces together, he admits that. He says that he should have done more. There's no "other side" to debate that point.

    My point is that people are villifying him undeservedly. By that I mean they're calling him a liar and suggesting that he is a victim of dementia. Those sorts of attacks are not supported by the facts as we know them today.

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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Fair enough but it's also pointless to discuss it further with people who think JoePa's a liar. We've reached the crux of the disagreement. Some people's opinions of Joe are now so low that they think in addition to not reporting this to police himself that he's also a bold faced liar.

    I do appreciate the honesty of those folks who have given me simple and straight forward answers to my question "do you think he's lying?"

    Kudos to those posters for being straight forward
    Vicky Triponey says Joe Pa routinely exerted pressure on her and instructed his players to not cooperate with Penn State's office of student conduct. Yet Joe Pa claims he didn't follow up about the rape of a child in his lockeroom because he was afraid of jeopardizing university procedures?

    You need to start being more critical of "what we know" before you chastise others for being biased....

    Kudos to those posters who have approached this story with an open mind.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Vicky Triponey says Joe Pa routinely exerted pressure on her and instructed his players to not cooperate with Penn State's office of student conduct. Yet Joe Pa claims he didn't follow up about the rape of a child in his lockeroom because he was afraid of jeopardizing university procedures?

    You need to start being more critical of "what we know" before you chastise others for being biased....

    Kudos to those posters who have approached this story with an open mind.
    JoePa and Triponey obviously didn't get along. Big deal. It has nothing to do with this case

    Do you think folks that claim Paterno is a liar have an open mind?

    JoJo you of all people should understand that we should look at things as they are rather than as they appear.

    You spent countless hours defending what appeared to be a shady situation in Auburn in its recruitment of Cam Newton. No matter how it appeared, you were correct in stating over and over again that nothing had been proven against Auburn. Apply the same standard here

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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    I see you're still insistent on arguing.

    I'll try to simplify it:

    I agree with you that it's extremely unlikely that he has dementia
    Your thought process in this discussion is incoherent, and you need to simplify for me, huh? That's precious.

    I'm pretty sure you've taken the devil's advocate to the nth degree here. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, of course.
    Last edited by traderumor; 01-17-2012 at 08:44 PM.
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    JoePa and Triponey obviously didn't get along. Big deal. It has nothing to do with this case

    Do you think folks that claim Paterno is a liar have an open mind?

    JoJo you of all people should understand that we should look at things as they are rather than as they appear.

    You spent countless hours defending what appeared to be a shady situation in Auburn in its recruitment of Cam Newton. No matter how it appeared, you were correct in stating over and over again that nothing had been proven against Auburn. Apply the same standard here
    I spent hours illustrating how specific statements were demonstratably false based upon facts in that thread. You should actually apply that standard here...

    It's puzzling for instance how you dismiss Triponey so flippantly when her assertions undercut Joe Pa's explanation. A person cant claim they fear jeopardizing procedure when they have a track record of subverting it.
    Last edited by jojo; 01-17-2012 at 09:04 PM.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  13. #912
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Your thought process in this discussion is incoherent, and you need to simplify for me, huh? That's precious.

    I'm pretty sure you've taken the devil's advocate to the nth degree here. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, of course.
    I don't know why you have to be so combative. Chill out.

    You and I agree that JoePa is not senile.

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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    I don't know why you have to be so combative. Chill out.

    You and I agree that JoePa is not senile.
    I think some people take child abuse really seriously, and get really upset when it happens, and really angry at the people involved in allowing it to happen, no matter how peripherally, and they aren't going to chill out as long people keep defending someone who admits he didn't do enough to stop child abuse. These are what we call in some parts of the world normal people.

    Also, I think Paterno is a liar, for the record. Given the level of influence and control he had over Penn State and Penn State football in particular, I just do not believe that he was unaware of the 1998 investigation. I wouldn't believe that in any event; I especially don't believe it given the timing of Sandusky's resignation, and Lavar Arrington's character testimony didn't change my mind.
    Last edited by top6; 01-17-2012 at 09:47 PM.

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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by top6 View Post
    I think some people take child abuse really seriously, and get really upset when it happens, and really angry at the people involved in allowing it to happen, no matter how peripherally, and they aren't going to chill out as long people keep defending someone who admits he didn't do enough to stop child abuse. These are what we call in some parts of the world normal people.

    Also, I think Paterno is a liar, for the record. Given the level of influence and control he had over Penn State and Penn State football in particular, I just do not believe that he didn't know about the 1998 investigation. I wouldn't believe that in any event; I especially don't believe it given the timing of Sandusky's resignation, and Lavar Arrington's character testimony didn't change my mind.
    Finding common ground in any discussion is a worthy thing. Whether we think JoePa was senile or not should have nothing to do with what we think about child abuse. If you're so emotionally charged with hatred that you won't accept common ground then that's on you

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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Finding common ground in any discussion is a worthy thing. Whether we think JoePa was senile or not should have nothing to do with what we think about child abuse. If you're so emotionally charged with hatred that you won't accept common ground then that's on you
    I would think the common ground would be that child abuse is horrible; everyone should do everything they can to stop it; and those that admittedly fail to stop it don't deserve the privilege of being a head coach at a major football program nor are they entitled to the legendary reputation they once enjoyed.

    I'm actually confused about how this thread became a debate.


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