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Thread: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

  1. #916
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    I don't know why you have to be so combative. Chill out.

    You and I agree that JoePa is not senile.
    Combative? I think I'm in the line forming called "done debating a nonsensical position." You're going to have to yank someone else's chain from here.
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  3. #917
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Penn State trustees say they decided to oust Joe Paterno in part because the football coach didn't meet a moral obligation to do more to alert authorities about a child sex abuse allegation against a retired assistant coach.
    http://www.cnnsi.com/2012/football/n..._a13&eref=sihp
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by texasdave View Post
    Penn State trustees say they decided to oust Joe Paterno in part because the football coach didn't meet a moral obligation to do more to alert authorities about a child sex abuse allegation against a retired assistant coach.
    http://www.cnnsi.com/2012/football/n..._a13&eref=sihp
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  5. #919
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by top6 View Post
    I would think the common ground would be that child abuse is horrible; everyone should do everything they can to stop it; and those that admittedly fail to stop it don't deserve the privilege of being a head coach at a major football program nor are they entitled to the legendary reputation they once enjoyed.

    I'm actually confused about how this thread became a debate.
    Here's the thing. Loathe as I am to side with Sea Ray, the debate isn't about whether Paterno deserves to be the head coach of a football team. It isn't even about his legacy.

    The issue isn't whether or not Paterno failed to do the right thing. Or at least failed to do all he could. He has admitted to this failure. He's admitted to guilt that he didn't do more.

    The debate it appears Sea Ray is having is whether he not only failed to do the right thing, but that he actually did the wrong thing in order to keep the PR problem under wraps. If he in fact did that, he's even worse than Sandusky because while Sandusky is obviously very sick, Paterno thought child abuse took a back seat to his football programs' legacy.

    I agree with you that "normal people" take child abuse really seriously, and are angry at people who don't do what they can to prevent it. But that's the problem. I think this anger is clouding the judgement of people in this situation.

    It may in fact turn out to be that Paterno is a liar, it may turn out to be the case that he in fact purposefully covered this entire sick history up. But that's a very different case than, simply being angry at Paterno for not doing more.
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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    Here's the thing. Loathe as I am to side with Sea Ray, the debate isn't about whether Paterno deserves to be the head coach of a football team. It isn't even about his legacy.

    The issue isn't whether or not Paterno failed to do the right thing. Or at least failed to do all he could. He has admitted to this failure. He's admitted to guilt that he didn't do more.

    The debate it appears Sea Ray is having is whether he not only failed to do the right thing, but that he actually did the wrong thing in order to keep the PR problem under wraps. If he in fact did that, he's even worse than Sandusky because while Sandusky is obviously very sick, Paterno thought child abuse took a back seat to his football programs' legacy.

    I agree with you that "normal people" take child abuse really seriously, and are angry at people who don't do what they can to prevent it. But that's the problem. I think this anger is clouding the judgement of people in this situation.

    It may in fact turn out to be that Paterno is a liar, it may turn out to be the case that he in fact purposefully covered this entire sick history up. But that's a very different case than, simply being angry at Paterno for not doing more.
    Paterno is the football coach that won 409 games and who by his own admission failed to do enough to prevent the rape of children in his locker room which ultimately led to a scandal big enough to get the University President fired, himself fired and possibly his AD jail time. That's his legacy and no part of it is really in dispute. I'm not sure that I get a narrative that condemns such a narrative as patently unfair.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    Here's the thing. Loathe as I am to side with Sea Ray,
    Awww c'mon. It's not that bad...

    I'm honored to be mentioned so many times by name in one thread...

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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Paterno is the football coach that won 409 games and who by his own admission failed to do enough to prevent the rape of children in his locker room which ultimately led to a scandal big enough to get the University President fired, himself fired and possibly his AD jail time. That's his legacy and no part of it is really in dispute. I'm not sure that I get a narrative that condemns such a narrative as patently unfair.
    If that's the narrative, then I agree with you. However the part I've taken issue with is the narrative that Paterno swept every incident under the rug intentionally in an effort to protect either himself, his program, or his legacy. That's the story that at the very least is in dispute in my mind.

    Perhaps Sea Ray believes Paterno is more innocent then I do, and the pages and pages of debate show that at the very least he is more strident in his belief than I am.

    But as I said, I think there's a danger in assuming the worst possible explanation of the situation and letting whatever evidence we see be filtered through that belief because the sheer inhumanity makes us so angry we want to lash out at everyone involved.
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    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    If that's the narrative, then I agree with you. However the part I've taken issue with is the narrative that Paterno swept every incident under the rug intentionally in an effort to protect either himself, his program, or his legacy. That's the story that at the very least is in dispute in my mind.

    Perhaps Sea Ray believes Paterno is more innocent then I do, and the pages and pages of debate show that at the very least he is more strident in his belief than I am.

    But as I said, I think there's a danger in assuming the worst possible explanation of the situation and letting whatever evidence we see be filtered through that belief because the sheer inhumanity makes us so angry we want to lash out at everyone involved.
    Don't forget that Sea Ray's position is Paterno's just the football coach and delegated this dirty work. Call it the Pilate position. That was the genesis of this line of discussion. Not too many folks side with handwashing cowards like Pilate and Paterno.
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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  11. #925
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Don't forget that Sea Ray's position is Paterno's just the football coach and delegated this dirty work. Call it the Pilate position. That was the genesis of this line of discussion. Not too many folks side with handwashing cowards like Pilate and Paterno.
    There's more than you would think...

    Nike founder and CEO Phil Knight won a thunderous standing ovation when he defended Paterno's handling of the 2002 allegations against former defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky. Paterno, he hinted, had been made a scapegoat.

    "If there is a villain in this tragedy, it lies in that investigation and not in Joe Paterno's response," Knight said. Paterno's widow, Sue, was among those rising to their feet.



    http://m.startribune.com/sports/?id=138127383&c=y
    Something tells me such a statement would not get a standing ovation here at Redszone. In fact I think only one person here would support what he said. This is one subject (there are others) where RZ is not a melting pot of ideas. I'm with Phil Knight here. That's what I've been saying for months
    Last edited by Sea Ray; 01-27-2012 at 09:48 AM.

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    There's more than you would think...



    Something tells me such a statement would not get a standing ovation here at Redszone. In fact I think only one person here would support what he said. This is one subject (there are others) where RZ is not a melting pot of ideas. I'm with Phil Knight here. That's what I've been saying for months
    RZ certainly isn't biased and unable to arrive at a rationale position on the issue.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  13. #927
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    RZ certainly isn't biased and unable to arrive at a rationale position on the issue.
    So it doesn't surprise you that there's not more variance in opinion, that it's so monolithic on this subject?

  14. #928
    Member top6's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    There's more than you would think...



    Something tells me such a statement would not get a standing ovation here at Redszone. In fact I think only one person here would support what he said. This is one subject (there are others) where RZ is not a melting pot of ideas. I'm with Phil Knight here. That's what I've been saying for months
    It seems like most people were willing to let this go out of respect for the dead, but you just couldn't do that, could you?

    I read his whole speech on deadspin yesterday. He is exactly like you, apparently. When the scandal was revealed, he had already decided that Joe Paterno could do no wrong, and decided to blame everyone else but Joe no matter what the facts say. Thus, the investigators are the "real villains" (I think you used that exact word to describe them in November) even though we've never heard their side of the story, but we are to believe that Joe Paterno had never heard of male rape because he said so and it is inconceivable that he could tell a lie. It is all so ridiculous.

    A point I saw raised the other day that needs to be remembered. Jerry Sandusky ran a charity for children. Joe Paterno knew this. Even if his ridiculous story was true, and he was completely unaware of any of the allegations until 2002, his decision to do the bare minimum legally required, and to continue to allow Sandusky to operate his charity for children in connection with the PSU football program, is shocking and awful. I am sorry he had to resign and die in disgrace, as it appears he did a great many good things over his life, and I wish that he had a chance to truly accept responsibility and redeem himself, but it was his own decisions that that led him there.
    Last edited by top6; 01-27-2012 at 01:02 PM.

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    Five Tool Fool jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    So it doesn't surprise you that there's not more variance in opinion, that it's so monolithic on this subject?
    No. Joe Pa had knowledge of child rape within his locker room and even he acknowledged there was a disconnect between his reponse and what he could have done.
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  16. #930
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Incredible ugliness at Penn State

    I view this that Paterno was a man just like all the rest of us. He did some good things and he did some bad things. Just like all of us. We all have our shining moments and we all have our failures. "Cast the first stone" and all that.

    I think that if you look back on his "body of work", he was a good man. His lifetime and his works directly affected hundreds of players in a very positive way. I think the outpouring of support from his former players in the teeth of the ugliness of this scandal proves the depth that his effect had.

    I also think it was a major failing of his to not follow up on this scandal. But good men can do bad things. Great men have failings. In my humdrum life, the daily battle hasn't been good versus evil. It's hardly so epic. Most days, my real battle is doing good versus doing nothing. Paterno did nothing. Who here hasn't done something when they saw something needed to be done? I'd raise my hand.

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