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Thread: 2011-2012 Buckeyes Basketball

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    Re: 2011-2012 Buckeyes Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    And I think Brutus nailed it as to the turning point in the game, which was a blown call on Sullinger for the charge when the guy slid in under while he was in the air. Late in the game, Sullinger has perfect position, gets barrelled over, block and a key basket counts.
    This comment is from OSU's loss to Indiana. Does OSU ever get beat by a better team or are they always just screwed by the refs?

    OSU and MSU are trending opposite directions. Izzo's teams have been getting thinner and thinner in talent, this one being the least talented MSU team I can remember during his tenure. I'd say Izzo is a tiring elder statesman (fading star) while Matta is still at the top of his game (star in his prime).
    This was your last comment on MSU and that turned out to be dead wrong, I'm guessing this most recent prediction will turn out the same way. I would be absolutely shocked if MSU didn't make it past the Sweet 16.

    I am saying that their physical defense was actually fouling...How quickly Ohio State was in the bonus proves nothing.
    Their may have been fouls that went uncalled in MSU's favor, I am not denying that, but do you really think on those 13 missed 3's that MSU fouled them on more than one or two? What about the other 11? Any way you spin it the refs did not make OSU have a horrible shooting night. As to your second comment, It proves that the refs were calling fouls on MSU early in the game and they were not able to set the tone with overly physical play right from the opening tip.

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    Re: 2011-2012 Buckeyes Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by VottoFan54 View Post
    This comment is from OSU's loss to Indiana. Does OSU ever get beat by a better team or are they always just screwed by the refs?
    Go ahead and pick that low hanging fruit. I knew my comments would be taken as "refs screwed Ohio State," but I was giving readers the benefit of the doubt that they would see that "refs can set the tone for a game, they did in a way that favored MSU, it caused Ohio State problems in all facets of the game on the offensive end, including shooting," which was the intended meaning of my comments.

    But, to your argument, is Indiana a better team than Ohio State? While you're researching my prior posts, go back through the IU thread and read some of my predictions prior to their nosedive. Referees are a variable in a basketball game and can easily control a game. It is actually one of the easier sports of the big 3 to influence outcomes (see NBA ref busted for fixing games for gambling reasons, watch HS basketball in Anyplace USA). So yea, mentioning the officiating style in a game is a relevant point. As for Saturday's game, MSU played less poorly than Ohio State. Does that make them a better team?

    Quote Originally Posted by VottoFan54 View Post
    This was your last comment on MSU and that turned out to be dead wrong, I'm guessing this most recent prediction will turn out the same way. I would be absolutely shocked if MSU didn't make it past the Sweet 16.
    I still did not see a lot of talent on the floor for MSU Saturday. Green and a bunch of support staff, some of it not very good at all. I am growing in admiration of Izzo's coaching ability though. He is getting a lot of results out of a thin squad. Now, if Payne plays the way he does against OSU consistently, they have two great players, but for now, its pretty much Green and a Hall of Fame coach. I'll stand by comment and do not think it is "talent" but "whole greater than the sum of the parts." BTW, I assume you are an MSU fan, or at least secret admirer, by the flavor of your posts, no? You just have the opposite bias, yet you are in my face accusing me of homerism.


    Quote Originally Posted by VottoFan54 View Post
    Their may have been fouls that went uncalled in MSU's favor, I am not denying that, but do you really think on those 13 missed 3's that MSU fouled them on more than one or two? What about the other 11? Any way you spin it the refs did not make OSU have a horrible shooting night. As to your second comment, It proves that the refs were calling fouls on MSU early in the game and they were not able to set the tone with overly physical play right from the opening tip.
    For the record, I liked Sullinger's comments, who nailed something I noticed, and that is that "after 25 games we all of a sudden don't run our offense?" That is the jest of it, but the cause is a debatable.
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    Re: 2011-2012 Buckeyes Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Go ahead and pick that low hanging fruit. I knew my comments would be taken as "refs screwed Ohio State," but I was giving readers the benefit of the doubt that they would see that "refs can set the tone for a game, they did in a way that favored MSU, it caused Ohio State problems in all facets of the game on the offensive end, including shooting," which was the intended meaning of my comments.
    The refs absolutley set the tone for basketball games. I would much rather have them call a loose game, let the players play instead of calling every tic and tac foul.

    I didn't get to watch the full game. But I came away with a few observations. You aren't going to beat good teams when you shoot that poorly from the field. Hopefully they got that poor shooting game out of their system.

    Tom Izzo is one heck of a coach. He devised a game plan that beat OSU. Kudos to him. OSU travels to MSU in a few weeks so lets see if Thad and OSU have a response.

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    Re: 2011-2012 Buckeyes Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    The refs absolutley set the tone for basketball games. I would much rather have them call a loose game, let the players play instead of calling every tic and tac foul.

    I didn't get to watch the full game. But I came away with a few observations. You aren't going to beat good teams when you shoot that poorly from the field. Hopefully they got that poor shooting game out of their system.

    Tom Izzo is one heck of a coach. He devised a game plan that beat OSU. Kudos to him. OSU travels to MSU in a few weeks so lets see if Thad and OSU have a response.
    I think where Big 10 refs, and maybe all college refs need to improve is in cleaning up low post play. They call light contact in the frontcourt, yet allow the bigs to just pound on each other. Then they wonder why the bigs are ready to come to blows so frequently.
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    Re: 2011-2012 Buckeyes Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    The refs absolutley set the tone for basketball games. I would much rather have them call a loose game, let the players play instead of calling every tic and tac foul.

    I didn't get to watch the full game. But I came away with a few observations. You aren't going to beat good teams when you shoot that poorly from the field. Hopefully they got that poor shooting game out of their system.

    Tom Izzo is one heck of a coach. He devised a game plan that beat OSU. Kudos to him. OSU travels to MSU in a few weeks so lets see if Thad and OSU have a response.
    I know this isn't the way Matta coaches, but in that game, I kept on waiting for him to bring in someone like Sibert or even the kid from Georgia (name escaping me) for a few minutes to see if they could knock down a few shots. Just a short stint, let them fire up a few and see what happens. I also was screaming to switch to a zone against Purdue Tuesday just to change the look and maybe take them out of what was clearly torching the man to man on that particular night. But then, that is armchair coaching, just seemed like some in-game adjustments that were ripe for the picking to pick up the struggling starters. That kind of thing seems to be Matta's kryptonite.
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    Re: 2011-2012 Buckeyes Basketball

    Refs often times have too much say so in the outcome of the game. Bad calls, make up calls, etc. can have too big of an effect on the eventual outcome. My biggest pet peeve in college basketball is when an offical gets excited and emotional when making a call. Hightower is a decent official, but he often likes the spotlight to shine on him.

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    I know this isn't the way Matta coaches, but in that game, I kept on waiting for him to bring in someone like Sibert or even the kid from Georgia (name escaping me) for a few minutes to see if they could knock down a few shots. Just a short stint, let them fire up a few and see what happens. I also was screaming to switch to a zone against Purdue Tuesday just to change the look and maybe take them out of what was clearly torching the man to man on that particular night. But then, that is armchair coaching, just seemed like some in-game adjustments that were ripe for the picking to pick up the struggling starters. That kind of thing seems to be Matta's kryptonite.
    One of my biggest complaints about Matta may be his biggest strength. He doesn't panic and doesn't change his style. Often times it works out in the end but there are times when a change is needed. Matta is stubborn in making in game decisions which has hurt the team in the tournament but then I look at their final four run a handful of years ago and his coaching style was a key reason to why they made it there. There were times against and Tennessee where other coaches would have paniced, Matta didn't.

    I do think his biggest flaw has not being able to get any offense from the bench. When Smith Jr. was struggling on offense it would have been nice to see someone step in for him. Most of the guys who come off the bench are defensive minded players, not guys who can score.

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    Re: 2011-2012 Buckeyes Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Go ahead and pick that low hanging fruit. I knew my comments would be taken as "refs screwed Ohio State," but I was giving readers the benefit of the doubt that they would see that "refs can set the tone for a game, they did in a way that favored MSU, it caused Ohio State problems in all facets of the game on the offensive end, including shooting," which was the intended meaning of my comments.

    But, to your argument, is Indiana a better team than Ohio State? While you're researching my prior posts, go back through the IU thread and read some of my predictions prior to their nosedive. Referees are a variable in a basketball game and can easily control a game. It is actually one of the easier sports of the big 3 to influence outcomes (see NBA ref busted for fixing games for gambling reasons, watch HS basketball in Anyplace USA). So yea, mentioning the officiating style in a game is a relevant point. As for Saturday's game, MSU played less poorly than Ohio State. Does that make them a better team?
    Yes quite the Nostradamus you are. Picking them to lose games, fall to the back half of the top 25 which is where virtually everyone with whom you were arguing also had them ending up.

    That said, I do think officiating can set the tone for a game, and officiating a game tight or loose can in fact favor one side or the other.

    However from the relatively few games I've seen, it seems to work to tOSU's advantage when it is called loosely. Not being particularly deep, it seeems as though a tightly called contest would have a bigger impact.

    Maybe Ohio State needs the game to be called "just right" so that it's not too tight wherer Craft and Sullinger are susceptible to cheapies, but not too loose where more physical front lines can overpower Sullinger with their girth.
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    Re: 2011-2012 Buckeyes Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    Yes quite the Nostradamus you are. Picking them to lose games, fall to the back half of the top 25 which is where virtually everyone with whom you were arguing also had them ending up.

    That said, I do think officiating can set the tone for a game, and officiating a game tight or loose can in fact favor one side or the other.

    However from the relatively few games I've seen, it seems to work to tOSU's advantage when it is called loosely. Not being particularly deep, it seeems as though a tightly called contest would have a bigger impact.

    Maybe Ohio State needs the game to be called "just right" so that it's not too tight wherer Craft and Sullinger are susceptible to cheapies, but not too loose where more physical front lines can overpower Sullinger with their girth.
    LOL, yea, folks were figuring on losing to Nebraska on the road and Minnesota at home all while puffing out their chests about wins at home over UK and Ohio St. The collapse happened shortly after I was laughed out of the thread by the schoolgirl crush-like faithful, then they start throwing out disclaimers when the unexpected losses come. Now I know what folks are talking about with IU bball fans.

    BTW, IU looked really good against Purdue. I watched a lot of that game and they resembled the team that won those two big games, and on the road in a rivalry game. I think they are a darkhorse Sweet 16 candidate, but are also just as likely to get beat in the first round. They've been pretty up and down since the OSU game.
    Last edited by traderumor; 02-13-2012 at 01:58 PM.
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    Re: 2011-2012 Buckeyes Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    Yes quite the Nostradamus you are. Picking them to lose games, fall to the back half of the top 25 which is where virtually everyone with whom you were arguing also had them ending up.

    That said, I do think officiating can set the tone for a game, and officiating a game tight or loose can in fact favor one side or the other.

    However from the relatively few games I've seen, it seems to work to tOSU's advantage when it is called loosely. Not being particularly deep, it seeems as though a tightly called contest would have a bigger impact.

    Maybe Ohio State needs the game to be called "just right" so that it's not too tight wherer Craft and Sullinger are susceptible to cheapies, but not too loose where more physical front lines can overpower Sullinger with their girth.
    I would love for refs to call the game "just right." Who wants anything less? But it isn't girth that is Sullinger's kryptonite, its long-armed, athletic big men. Girth goes to Sullinger, he's strong. The athletic guys can foul and not make it so obvious
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    Re: 2011-2012 Buckeyes Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    Maybe Ohio State needs the game to be called "just right" so that it's not too tight wherer Craft and Sullinger are susceptible to cheapies, but not too loose where more physical front lines can overpower Sullinger with their girth.
    What is just right?

    When OSU played Purdue, OSU was almost into the bonus with 12 minutes to go in the 1st half. I told myself at the time that it is helping OSU but the officials are having too much of a say in the game.

    For the most part Craft plays defense the way you teach someone to play. You move your feet to stay in front of a player and don't reach. The tic tac fouls hurt OSU more than they help OSU most of the time.

    But as for the loss it all came down to OSU's poor shooting. Hopefully they got that out of the way as the tournament gets near. You see it happen to the best of teams, it just usually doesn't happen at their home court.

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    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    LOL, yea, folks were figuring on losing to Nebraska on the road and Minnesota at home all while puffing out their chests about wins at home over UK and Ohio St. The collapse happened shortly after I was laughed out of the thread by the schoolgirl crush-like faithful, then they start throwing out disclaimers when the unexpected losses come. Now I know what folks are talking about with IU bball fans.

    BTW, IU looked really good against Purdue. I watched a lot of that game and they resembled the team that won those two big games, and on the road in a rivalry game. I think they are a darkhorse Sweet 16 candidate, but are also just as likely to get beat in the first round. They've been pretty up and down since the OSU game.
    What are talking about?

    Who was puffing out their chest? Were we excited? You're damn right, why shouldn't we have been excited? I'm still excited. No one thought we were a better team than UK or OSU. No one thought we were going to be a top ten team at the end of the season, but coming into the season we were going to be satisfied with an NIT bid. It was cool for us to see our team ranked in the top ten for a little while.

    Did we expect to lose at Nebraska or Minnesota at home? No of course not but we knew it was a possibility, they're a young team.

    You came in the thread and claimed we were doing things that werent doing and are still claiming that. And you took any disagreement toward you as an insult, all the while insulting us.


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    Last edited by Razor Shines; 02-13-2012 at 02:37 PM.

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    Re: 2011-2012 Buckeyes Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    I still did not see a lot of talent on the floor for MSU Saturday. Green and a bunch of support staff, some of it not very good at all. I am growing in admiration of Izzo's coaching ability though. He is getting a lot of results out of a thin squad. Now, if Payne plays the way he does against OSU consistently, they have two great players, but for now, its pretty much Green and a Hall of Fame coach. I'll stand by comment and do not think it is "talent" but "whole greater than the sum of the parts." BTW, I assume you are an MSU fan, or at least secret admirer, by the flavor of your posts, no? You just have the opposite bias, yet you are in my face accusing me of homerism.


    For the record, I liked Sullinger's comments, who nailed something I noticed, and that is that "after 25 games we all of a sudden don't run our offense?" That is the jest of it, but the cause is a debatable.
    I would agree that MSU isn't the most talented team, but they are certainly more talented than last year. Izzo never has team stocked full of talent like Duke or UNC, he just gets players that fit his system and the net results is a team that plays well togethed and has good chemistry. Yes, I am a MSU fan, but I don't think that I accused you of homerism. We are obviously both homers and I don't think either of us have a real neutral viewpoint on this game and these teams.

    I disagree with Sullinger, I have seen many teams that can't buy a shot over the course of a game, yet are a good team. Many teams have gone cold in games of this magnitude.

    Regardless of the result both teams have things to take away from this game. OSU will have to be more consistent it their jump shooting and be able to adjust to officiating in the tournament. You and I may not like it but there will be poorly officiatied games in the tourney, but the best teams can overcome that. I think this game is a tremendous confidence boost for MSU, and they needed it. MSU needs to figure it out offensively when Appling is struggling (or in this case being shut down by Craft). Every player is likely to have a bad game over the course of a 6 game tourney, and you have to adjust to their performance. If OSU could have knocked down jumpers, MSU would have lost the game.

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    Re: 2011-2012 Buckeyes Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by Razor Shines View Post
    What are talking about?

    Who was puffing out their chest? Were we excited? You're damn right, why shouldn't we have been excited? I'm still excited. No one thought we were a better team than UK or OSU. No one thought we were going to be a top ten team at the end of the season, but coming into the season we were going to be satisfied with an NIT bid. It was cool for us to see our team ranked in the top ten for a little while.

    Did we expect to lose at Nebraska or Minnesota at home? No of course not but we knew it was a possibility, they're a young team.

    You came in the thread and claimed we were doing things that werent doing and are still claiming that. And you took any disagreement toward you as an insult, all the while insulting us.


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    Because your viewpoint of the points discussed is the correct one? Not my take on things, but I'd say we are at the agreeing to disagree stage. So I am.
    Last edited by traderumor; 02-13-2012 at 04:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Because your viewpoint of the points discussed is the correct one?
    What points are you referring to? The basketball stuff? Absolutely not. You stating that you think IU is a team too dependent on the 3, that maybe they didn't deserve to be ranked where they were, that they were a December flash...etc is all fair and not at all insulting.

    The other stuff is the insulting part. Saying we're puffing out our chest, when we weren't. The Seinfeld thing where you said you forgot about us and then we were telling everybody how great we were, when we weren't.



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    Re: 2011-2012 Buckeyes Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    What is just right?

    When OSU played Purdue, OSU was almost into the bonus with 12 minutes to go in the 1st half. I told myself at the time that it is helping OSU but the officials are having too much of a say in the game.

    For the most part Craft plays defense the way you teach someone to play. You move your feet to stay in front of a player and don't reach. The tic tac fouls hurt OSU more than they help OSU most of the time.

    But as for the loss it all came down to OSU's poor shooting. Hopefully they got that out of the way as the tournament gets near. You see it happen to the best of teams, it just usually doesn't happen at their home court.
    That's a very tight rope to walk.
    And obviously if for whatever reason one team gets called for a larger amount of fouls than it's opponents it's going to be at a huge disadvantage.

    But generally the fouls tend to be pretty evenly distributed. And like I said, if officials are calling too many ticky tack fouls, I'd agree that Ohio State would be at a big disadvantage because the bench is so thin.

    On the other hand, the officials really seemed to let Michigan State and Ohio State play physically, which allowed Sparty to grab the upper hand.

    Now granted, the "letting them play" may work to tOSU's advantage versus anyone except for the Spartans, but that's the point I was making about foul calling not being too stringent nor too lenient but rather "just right."
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