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View Poll Results: Who is Redszone's #11 prospect?

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  • OF Dave Sappelt

    28 45.90%
  • 2B Ron Torreyes

    33 54.10%
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Thread: Prospect #11 Runoff

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  1. #1
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Prospect #11 Runoff

    OF Dave Sappelt, or 2B Ron Torreyes?

  2. #2
    Member klw's Avatar
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    Re: Prospect #11 Runoff

    I voted for Torreyes but I am happy either way.

  3. #3
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Prospect #11 Runoff

    I am going with Dave Sappelt.

    Offensively, I think that Torreyes has a ceiling to be what Sappelt is right now. A guy who doesn't walk much, but has a solid walk rate, who also makes a lot of contact. I think Sappelt has the edge in power, while Torreyes has an edge in contact ability (though not by a ton). Defensively, both can play up the middle. Sappelt has better range between the two at their respective positions, but Sappelt's arm may bring the two closer in overall defense.

  4. #4
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Prospect #11 Runoff

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I am going with Dave Sappelt.

    Offensively, I think that Torreyes has a ceiling to be what Sappelt is right now. A guy who doesn't walk much, but has a solid walk rate, who also makes a lot of contact. I think Sappelt has the edge in power, while Torreyes has an edge in contact ability (though not by a ton). Defensively, both can play up the middle. Sappelt has better range between the two at their respective positions, but Sappelt's arm may bring the two closer in overall defense.
    My thoughts exactly. Sappelt is basically the guy we hope Torreyes becomes.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  5. #5
    Member klw's Avatar
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    Re: Prospect #11 Runoff

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    My thoughts exactly. Sappelt is basically the guy we hope Torreyes becomes.
    I think I joked in the middle of the season the "Torreyes the Spanish tranlation for Sappelt"

  6. #6
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    Re: Prospect #11 Runoff

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    My thoughts exactly. Sappelt is basically the guy we hope Torreyes becomes.
    At second base. While playing Gold Glove type defense.

    I've seen no reports from anyone who says Sappelt's defense is anywhere in the same league as Torreyes'. In fact, I've heard multiple scouts rave about Torreyes' glove while the only thing said about Sappelt in CF was that his arm was weak.

    I like Sappelt. I think he can be an above average major league player. When right, he reminds me of Bill Madlock.

    But Torreyes already has the glove to play a major league second base. (At least he did according to Redsof72 and scouts who saw him play in Spring Training last season and Dayton the year before that.)

    Too, Sappelt-- though he had two very good seasons-- did it at an age appropriate level. Torreyes is putting up monster numbers three or four years younger than he should.

    My personal list has Sappelt well within the Top Ten. It just has the youth, production, positive scouting reports, and defensive ability of Torreyes higher.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  7. #7
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Prospect #11 Runoff

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    At second base. While playing Gold Glove type defense.

    I've seen no reports from anyone who says Sappelt's defense is anywhere in the same league as Torreyes'. In fact, I've heard multiple scouts rave about Torreyes' glove while the only thing said about Sappelt in CF was that his arm was weak.

    I like Sappelt. I think he can be an above average major league player. When right, he reminds me of Bill Madlock.

    But Torreyes already has the glove to play a major league second base. (At least he did according to Redsof72 and scouts who saw him play in Spring Training last season and Dayton the year before that.)

    Too, Sappelt-- though he had two very good seasons-- did it at an age appropriate level. Torreyes is putting up monster numbers three or four years younger than he should.

    My personal list has Sappelt well within the Top Ten. It just has the youth, production, positive scouting reports, and defensive ability of Torreyes higher.
    I said above that Sappelt's defense is as good. I think Torreyes' defense may be a bit overrated by some of those on this board. Scouts I have talked to like his defense, but they don't love it and certainly don't think its gold glove quality at this point.

    As for Torreyes posting his numbers at his age being impressive... it really is. But how much better can they honestly get? There simply isn't much projection there. He isn't going to improve his strikeout rate. His power isn't going to do much.

  8. #8
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    Re: Prospect #11 Runoff

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I think Torreyes' defense may be a bit overrated by some of those on this board. Scouts I have talked to like his defense, but they don't love it and certainly don't think its gold glove quality at this point.
    Three errors in more than 250 total chances. That's Gold Glove level.

    BA thinks Sappelt's D is better as well:

    Ben (Miamisburg, OH): Dave Sappelt has quietly and methodically put together an excellent year for the Reds AAA club and with his good contact rates and stellar outfield defense along with the Reds woes with the leadoff spot in their batting order, wouldn't he make more sense to have up in Cincinnati than Yonder Alonso to play in LF?
    J.J. Cooper: I'd agree with you if the Reds were using Alonso as a regular left fielder, but for now it seems like Alonso's more of a bench lefty bat rather than anything else, and in that role Alonso fits better than Sappelt because the Reds are looking for a lefty bat. Sappelt's more blocked right now by Chris Heisey, another righty bat with a similar profile but better defense than Sappelt.
    Ben (Miamisburg, OH): What are your thoughts on pint sized Reds 2B, 18 year old Ronald Torreyes who has put up a .394/.438/.497 line in 165 at bats in the pitcher friendly midwest league? He is small but fast, is a plus defender and I recently saw him hit a ball out of the stadium in Dayton just going foul to miss the home run so he obviously has some pop. Is he a good comparison to Jose Altuve?
    J.J. Cooper: We love the Lil Red Machine around here. He ranked 22nd on our preseason Reds Top 30 despite having a grand total of 24 games in the U.S. coming into this season. As a very short second baseman it's hard not to comp him to Altuve, but there are some differences. Altuve has more power, but Torreyes runs better and is better defensively at second.
    In fact, they rate it thusly, in their scouting report:
    "Torreyes is a wizard with the glove, capable of making the highlight play ranging into the outfield or behind the bag...At the plate, Torreyes has surprising pop for his size and he profiles as a top of the order hitter."
    Another take, this one from the Dayton newspaper and Minorleaguebaseball.com:
    The arrival of the youngster at Fifth Third Field, despite the numbers he had put up throughout the summer, was met without fanfare. And in the six games in which he appeared, he batted just .240, collecting two doubles and a triple. However, the impact Torreyes made on observers in Dayton was enormous, not because of his offense, but because of his play at second base. From the first game he played with the Dragons, Torreyes made one spectacular play after another, turning in a series of web gems that would have earned any big leaguer a place on ESPN's plays of the day. Going to his left and right, Torreyes played the kind of defense that had fans and scouts shaking their heads. With one diving catch after another, often throwing out runners from his knees, Torreyes' week in Dayton generated enough discussion that Baseball America ranked him as the number 22 prospect in the Reds organization entering 2011. That is quite an accomplishment for a player whose original signing generated not a whisper, and his experience level in the U.S. consisted of a total of 22 official games.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  9. #9
    ZCTRMTP!!!!!
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    Re: Prospect #11 Runoff

    Early returns indicate a walkoff runoff.
    Zero chance the Reds miss the playoffs!

  10. #10
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    Re: Prospect #11 Runoff

    Sappelt. If Torreyes can put up the ML numbers I look for from Sappelt, then we will have a very nice replacement for BP at 2b.

  11. #11
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    Re: Prospect #11 Runoff

    I like both players quite a bit, but will stay with the more advanced guy who has put up big numbers in AA and AAA. Been voting Sappelt for a while.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  12. #12
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    Re: Prospect #11 Runoff

    Well said by Scrap. I, too, like Sappelt. I think he can really hit and chase flies. But I don't know how in the world we can say that he is what we hope Torreyes becomes.

    At this point, they have one common stop: Dayton.

    Sappelt, Dayton, age 22 (331 PA): 269/322/392/714
    Torreyes, Dayton, age 18 (306 PA): 356/398/457/855

    In addition, Torreyes, by all accounts, is a better fielder and baserunner, and more fundamentally sound.

    On Sappelt's behalf, he didn't really break out until age 23. On Torreyes' behalf, he has another five years before he's 23. And yet, his career minor-league OPS (935) is more than 100 points better than Sappelt's (821).

    To say that Torreyes' upside is Sappelt is to sell Torreyes waaaaay short, IMO.
    Last edited by mace; 11-18-2011 at 10:07 AM.

  13. #13
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    Re: Prospect #11 Runoff

    How much better can Torreyes get, potentially? A lot better. Because he can get bigger and much stronger.

    Keep in mind that Torreyes turned 19 years old on September 2, 2011. That means, even next season, he will play as a 19 year old.

    One would think that Torreyes will fill out. He is listed on Baseball Reference as 5'9" and 140. By the time he is 24, say, he is likely to be quite a bit stronger. And hit for more power.

    The young man has a remarkable set of stats for his age. Think about it. Age 18 he has already posted an .855 OPS in 306 plate appearances at the Low A-ball level. At age 19 this fellow will likely be in High-A ball and could even be at AA before he is 20.

    Very impressive.

    Sorry to interrupt the electioneering with some of my own.
    Last edited by Kc61; 11-18-2011 at 10:07 AM.

  14. #14
    Will post for food BuckeyeRedleg's Avatar
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    Re: Prospect #11 Runoff

    Dave Sappelt at Dayton (2009....22 years old):

    331 PA
    3 HR, 25 RBI
    .269 AVG.
    .322 OBP
    .392 SLG%
    .714 OPS

    Ronald Torreyes at Dayton (2011....18 years old):

    306 PA
    3 HR, 41 RBI
    .356 AVG.
    .398 OBP
    .457 SLG%
    .855 OPS


    I'll take Torreyes.

    *edit: oops. Didn't read down through thread before posting. Looks like mace already covered this.
    Last edited by BuckeyeRedleg; 11-18-2011 at 11:07 AM.

  15. #15
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    Re: Prospect #11 Runoff

    I think it's a bit presumptuous to assume that Torreyes's strikeout rate will not improve. As of right now, he hasn't faced a situation where it's actually been an issue, due to him getting so many hits across all levels. He also flashed more power last year in a more hitter-friendly league, so there's a chance that he could improve there too (and let's not forget that, while it's a long shot, he's young enough that he could still add a few inches).

    Personally, I have both of these guys above Corcino and Boxberger. I believe that they've got a much higher potential to succeed than do any of our pitchers, to be honest.


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