Its two years of Joey Votto. Bumgarner and Belt (with the exception of Posey) are the two best young players in the SF system. Affeldt would be to even the money a bit for SF.Originally Posted by Will M
Its two years of Joey Votto. Bumgarner and Belt (with the exception of Posey) are the two best young players in the SF system. Affeldt would be to even the money a bit for SF.
All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!
I happened to just see yours since it was multiple ideas in a very long thread. Promise, I am not stalking you.Like clockwork I can always count on you to respond to me. What about corkedbat's dream trade? He's doing the same thing. He traded multiple 40-man guys for 1 guy.
Geez. Feel like you're stalking me at times.
But yeah, corked.... same for you. Trades with multiple 40 man guys for 1 doesn't often work.
The Ms already have their future first baseman and Pineda > Bailey/Fisher.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
I haven't thought all of this completely through, but wanted to play out the string based on some ideas that I thought fit our stated priorities and seemed fair/realistic for all involved. Enjoy!
Reds/Marlins
Give: Drew Stubbs, Juan Fransisco, Edinson Volquez
Get: Hanley Ramirez
Why it works for the Marlins: CF, 3B, and SP are three areas the Marlins are targetting and they land two Dominicans.
Why it works for the Reds: Reds have CF depth to spare and Hanley could play OF or 3B potentially, while serving as the RH bat we've been desperate for. Admittedly, I'm not as high on Juan Fransisco as others are. I'd like to trade him before he gets exposed as a LH Marcus Thames.
Reds/Rays
Give: Joey Votto
Get: James Shields, BJ Upton
Why it works for the Rays: Votto gives them a bat that can put them over the top and the money comes out close enough. Moving Upton clears the way for Jennings to man CF full-time. Upton's trade value is considerably less than it was with FA compensation changes. Phipps gives them some more depth.
Why it works for the Reds: By most accounts, Alonso isn't going to get it done for an ace. If you believe in his bat, Alonso has more value to the Reds than potential trade partners, who want a discount becaus it's not proven yet. Shields would likely thrive outside of the AL East, giving the Reds a legit #1. Upton comes partially for salary reasons, but has been unfairly viewed as a disappointment despite being a 4 win player 4 of the last 5 years.
Reds/Rockies
Give: Bronson Arroyo, Chris Heisey, Henry Rodriguez
Get: Huston Street, Seth Smith
Why it works for the Rockies: They have about as much payroll flexibility as the Reds do (e.g. very little) and really need an innings eater. Save for their handedness, Heisey and Smith are similar players, but Heisey is cheaper and makes the money work.
Why it works for the Reds: You want a proven closer, there you go. I'd rather not pay a reliever that much money, but assuming he's healthy, Street is about as good as they come. He's not a perfect fit given his FB tendencies, but you can't have it all. Meanwhile, Smith gives the Reds a RH-crushing LF platoon option and power bat off the bench in the Laynce Nix mold -- a solid 4th OF with Sappelt and Upton coming from the right side and both capable of playing a solid CF.
Roster
LF Sappelt
2B Phillips
1B Alonso
SS Ramirez
RF Bruce
3B Rolen
CF Upton
CA Mesoraco
IF Cairo
IF/OF Frazier
SS Cozart
OF Smith
CA Hanigan
SP Shields
SP Cueto
SP Leake
SP Bailey
SP Wood
CL Street
SU Masset
SU Bray
MR Arrendondo
MR Boxberger
LR Ondrusek
LR LeCure
My biggest complaint here is that it leaves the rotation shallow, though LeCure really looked good last year and is nice insurance. It also hurts our SS defense, but Ramirez isn't as bad as he looks at times and will be helped by having BP and Rolen on his flanks. It does make our OF defense much better.
I think that team wins the NL Central and has a legit shot in the playoffs.
Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.
RMR,
Some nice thoughts here, and I agree that that team is very capable of winning the Central. However, I don't think the Marlins are getting enough star power for Ramirez. Votto could probably get him, or some combo of the Cuban guys (primarily Chapman and Grandal, I'd think).
I left Chapman off my roster entirely.... doh! I guess you slot him in at #5 or in relief, bumping Ondrusek (who was not as effective as people seem to think he was).
Last edited by RedsManRick; 12-05-2011 at 07:28 PM.
Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.
Alot of dealing off one of the better players in the league. Why is trading Joey Votto fall under a dream scenario for many of you? Do you guys really want to trade him off?
"You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."
--Woody Hayes
Why do you believe Ondrusek wasn't that effective?
"You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."
--Woody Hayes
Not that he was horrible, but his ERA was lucky -- simple ERA vs. FIP (or xFIP). Didn't really miss a ton of bats. Walked a fair number. Had some nice BABIP luck. As relievers go, he was basically replacement level.
Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.
If the Reds weren't small market, think of what they could do in the free agent and international market:
1. Pursue Hiroki Kuroda, and hopefully sign him for 2 years in the starting rotation.
2. Pursue Cespedes, and plant him in LF.
They already have a formidable offense.
They have Cueto, Leake, and Arroyo.
Use Alonso, Bailey, Wood, Volquez, Grandal and others to trade for another great arm like Shields or Pineda.
Shields
Kuroda
Cueto
Leake
Arroyo
Not bad.
2B Phillips
SS Cozart
1B Votto
LF Cespedes
RF Bruce
3B Francisco/Rolen
CF Stubbs, Heisey or Sappelt
C Hanigan/Mez
Pretty good lineup and you don't have to completely gut your farm system. They just have to up payroll to around $100M, which will never happen.
Dream Trade 1: Aroldis Chapman, Yasmani Grandal and Bronson Arroyo for Hanley Ramirez
HanRam reportedly wants out of Miami after they signed Reyes. This gives them two up-and-coming Cuban-born stars, and help for the rotation. It also gives the Reds the payflex to afford HanRam.
Dream Trade 2: Yonder Alonso and Chris Heisey for Michael Pineda and Brandon League
Mariners want a 1B who can sock and an OF with upside. Reds could use a young frontline starter and a guy who can finish games. Relatively payroll neutral for both teams.
Dream Trade 3: Chris Heisey for Matt Capps
Nationals are hellbent on getting a CF and willing to trade Capps to do it. Reds deal a spare part for a young, inexpensive proven closer with local ties.
Dream Trade 4: Homer Bailey, Billy Hamilton, Nick Masset, Paul Janish and Yorman Rodriguez for Cole Hamels
Phillies reportedly now in on Gio Gonzalez, and don't believe they'll be able to re-sign Hamels after this year. According to ESPN they are looking for this type of package. Reds get their playoff-tested #1 starter and are not burdened with payroll beyond 2012.
Dream Trade 5: Sign Carlos Beltran to a 2-year deal to play LF
OK so it's not a trade, but it is the most obvious move the Reds could make this offseason, especially after making any one or more of the above trades.
Last edited by Benihana; 12-07-2011 at 09:47 AM.
Go BLUE!!!
Arroyo to the Phillies for Cole Hamels.
Stubbs to the Giants for Matt Cain.
Volquez to the Pirates for Andrew McCutcheon.
Dream trades, right?
"I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful
If Lou P can get traded to the Devil Rays for Randy Winn, I want to trade Dusty Baker to that farm in Iowa for a few guys playing on the field of dreams...
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
How about Votto to the Rays for Price? One-for-one
Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. -- Carl Sagan (Pale Blue Dot)
That trade was made in 07 if you remember.You don't trade Votto unless you are getting an impact bat in return,and then more.
"Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser."
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