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Thread: Closer: Down to Cordero or Madson?

  1. #76
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    Re: Closer: Down to Cordero or Madson?

    Reds have two major needs, as I see it, closer and left fielder.

    Madson is the one player on the market who can make a big impact on the ballclub at one of these positions. That's why I'd try to sign him.

    The other free agent closers and outfielders are perhaps past their prime or guys who haven't done that well recently. As for another major trade, the Reds don't have that much to offer, unless they are willing to gut the remaining farm system.

    The one player out there, at either position, who looks to be a real upgrade is Madson. Adding him to the current bullpen would be a major coup for the Reds, would really give it a strong bullpen, deep, with power arms to close out games.

    Even if it means a lesser player in left field (or as an infield reserve), I'd spend Bob's money to get the quality guy in Madson.

    I've been a big supporter of Cordero. I have always been glad the Reds gave him the big contract to sign. But I'm just not confident, at this later stage of his career, that Coco is the best alternative to close games. I may be wrong, folks have doubted him before, he has been a true closer in every sense. But nobody lasts forever and I would be concerned if the Reds go in his direction again.

    If the Reds do get Madson, I think there would be tremendous excitement around the ballclub. And, of course, the number of Redszone posts would grow, which is even more important.
    Last edited by Kc61; 12-30-2011 at 02:07 PM.

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  3. #77
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Closer: Down to Cordero or Madson?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Reds have two major needs, as I see it, closer and left fielder.

    Madson is the one player on the market who can make a big impact on the ballclub at one of these positions. That's why I'd try to sign him.

    The other free agent closers and outfielders are perhaps past their prime or guys who haven't done that well recently. As for another major trade, the Reds don't have that much to offer, unless they are willing to gut the remaining farm system.

    The one player out there, at either position, who looks to be a real upgrade is Madson. Adding him to the current bullpen would be a major coup for the Reds, would really give it a strong bullpen, deep, with power arms to close out games.

    Even if it means a lesser player in left field (or as an infield reserve), I'd spend Bob's money to get the quality guy in Madson.

    I've been a big supporter of Cordero. I have always been glad the Reds gave him the big contract to sign. But I'm just not confident, at this later stage of his career, that Coco is the best alternative to close games. I may be wrong, folks have doubted him before, he has been a true closer in every sense. But nobody lasts forever and I would be concerned if the Reds go in his direction again.

    If the Reds do get Madson, I think there would be tremendous excitement around the ballclub. And, of course, the number of Redszone posts would grow, which is even more important.
    Well said (other than the "big supporter of Cordero" part, ha). And I'm beginning to get excited that there's actually a good chance the Reds will sign Madson. Man would that be nice.

  4. #78
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    Re: Closer: Down to Cordero or Madson?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    Well said (other than the "big supporter of Cordero" part, ha). And I'm beginning to get excited that there's actually a good chance the Reds will sign Madson. Man would that be nice.
    What makes this all the more feasible, IMO, is a simple review of Heisey's numbers against RHP.

    Heisey has an OPS of over.880 against right handers in his career. It's a relatively small sample. Less than a full season. But even if that OPS drops to .820 the Reds have a solid guy for left.

    I'd certainly be happy to take a shot with Heisey as my regular left fielder if I could get Madson for the bullpen.

    Then, add somebody like Luke Scott or another player who might not command big dollars for outfield depth.

    Here's another idea. Reds want a backup middle infielder. Keep Frazier on the roster. As a backup utility man, he can cheaply fill some needs. (Not, however, as a replacement for Francisco. Reds need Juan to backup Rolen against some RHP.) Here's an unpopular view: I've seen Frazier play shortstop and he isn't that bad. He's played it his whole life. As a backup to Cozart who can also play the outfield, I'd live with Todd if it gives the team some payflex. Or keep Janish as a backup shortstop to avoid adding a bigger salary.

    I'd be happy with all of these lower cost alternatives for LF and middle infield if the Reds would sign Madson.
    Last edited by Kc61; 12-30-2011 at 02:23 PM.

  5. #79
    Member klw's Avatar
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    Re: Closer: Down to Cordero or Madson?

    http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/201...-post-of-2011/

    Francisco Cordero’s agent was among those Jocketty spoke to this week. “We’ve made an offer,” he said. “He’s deciding what to do. He’s got a couple of other offers.”

    Cordero is someone who hurt him himself financially by waiting.

    Consider: Jocketty said the offer from the Reds is for one-year.

    The Reds haven’t talked to Madson’s people.

  6. #80
    Maple SERP savafan's Avatar
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    Re: Closer: Down to Cordero or Madson?

    The Reds haven’t talked to Madson’s people.
    Why not???
    My dad got to enjoy 3 Reds World Championships by the time he was my age. So far, I've only gotten to enjoy one. Step it up Redlegs!

  7. #81
    Two-Time Batting Champ Edd Roush's Avatar
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    Re: Closer: Down to Cordero or Madson?

    That's a major disappointment if Walt isn't talking to Madson at all. Why not at least find out what he's asking for? I can understand spinning the truth a little to strengthen your bargaining position, but there really isn't much gray area when he said he hasn't at all spoken with Madson's people...

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    Re: Closer: Down to Cordero or Madson?

    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    Why not???
    That's how you deal with Boras.

    Boras will not talk numbers, ever. He will not negotiate. He doesn't believe in putting a "ceiling" on his players. He simply asks that teams present their best offer, and then he says yes or no. All of his deals get done in less than a day from the time an offer is made and accepted.

    If you present too many offers, too early, you are just negotiating against yourself. I'm sure Jocketty understands this and is just playing high stakes poker, knowing the longer he waits, the lower the price. The only risk is, of course, if someone else makes an acceptable offer first, but it looks like that is not likely to happen.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  9. #83
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: Closer: Down to Cordero or Madson?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    That's how you deal with Boras.

    Boras will not talk numbers, ever. He will not negotiate. He doesn't believe in putting a "ceiling" on his players. He simply asks that teams present their best offer, and then he says yes or no. All of his deals get done in less than a day from the time an offer is made and accepted.

    If you present too many offers, too early, you are just negotiating against yourself. I'm sure Jocketty understands this and is just playing high stakes poker, knowing the longer he waits, the lower the price. The only risk is, of course, if someone else makes an acceptable offer first, but it looks like that is not likely to happen.
    interesting. when i read that Walt hadn't spoken with Madson's agent my first reaction was ughh. what you say gives me some hope.
    .

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    Re: Closer: Down to Cordero or Madson?

    Boras has made a living out of, among other things, inflating the value of saves so that his closer clients get paid artificially high salaries. With that in mind, one would think he would advise Madson to sign with a team - even for one year - that will guarantee him loads of saves. With the Reds offense and improved rotation, one would think Cincinnati would be a good place to set up a nice future contract.
    I have a love-hate relationship with Albert Pujols. Mostly hate.

  11. #85
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    Re: Closer: Down to Cordero or Madson?

    I'm hoping the Sox ceal with Bailey means Jocketty gets in touch with Madson, then goes public with it in order to keep Boras from inflating what he's offered. If another team trumps his offer, shrug-- he's lost little, as he would still have Cordero in the wings.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  12. #86
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    Re: Closer: Down to Cordero or Madson?

    I'd go 2 years $20 million on Madson, and drop a third based on games finished. I would not be in early on him, not with Boras. I make the offer in a few weeks, and leave it. If he doesn't sign, I'd go with Chapman or another inside alternative. No way I go back to CoCo.

  13. #87
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Closer: Down to Cordero or Madson?

    I kinda hope they just let Marshall close.

  14. #88
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    Re: Closer: Down to Cordero or Madson?

    If they let Marshall close, he only pitches the ninth. That means a lesser pitcher will pitch those high leverage situations in most games.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  15. #89
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Closer: Down to Cordero or Madson?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    If they let Marshall close, he only pitches the ninth. That means a lesser pitcher will pitch those high leverage situations in most games.
    Then why shell out millions of dollars on someone like Madson or Codero to pitch the ninth? I've always thought the Save was the most over-rated and over-valued stat in baseball.

    I think Masset, Bray and Arredondo can handle the high leverage situations in the seventh and eighth innings.

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    Re: Closer: Down to Cordero or Madson?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    I think Masset, Bray and Arredondo can handle the high leverage situations in the seventh and eighth innings.
    For the most part, they didn't last season.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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