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Thread: Indiana Basketball

  1. #706
    All Fired Up Revering4Blue's Avatar
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    Re: Indiana 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    A lot of good points in previous post. Not to defend Crean but IMO, whether or not IU could hire a better coach. IMO any decent coach with even a lick of sense would pass on the opportunity when such a sudden improvement is met with a "yeah thanks but we can do better." I dont disagree with those who feel like the program will stagnate over the next couple of years. It very well could. But looking to replace a coach out offer of what might happen will lead to a substandard crop of coaches will look to take over.
    Spot-on.

    Look what happened last year when Shaka Smart and all of the big-names turned down UCfreakingLA.
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    Re: Indiana 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    Spot-on.

    Look what happened last year when Shaka Smart and all of the big-names turned down UCfreakingLA.
    I think most IU fans are on the same page with regards to Crean (outside the lunatic fringe who demand he be fired post haste). He did help restore the program to prominence, but the foreseeable future doesn't look particularly promising. He stocked the cupboards with enough talent to win the national championship, only to bow out much too early. He's shown a disconcerting inability to recruit and develop bigs (Zeller didn't make any great strides, Vonleh looks good, HMP has come along slowly and as of now there's no size whatsoever coming in next year).

    To me, it makes most sense to give him another couple years to see if he can recapture that magic he had from 2011-2013. The hiring and performance of a new coach is a crapshoot. As Hoosier Red and Revering pointed out, there's no certainty in being able to attract a big name or up-and-comer, and were you to be fortunate to grab one, there's no guarantees they won't fall on their face. With Crean you know he can get you into the title picture. It's just going to take a year or two to see if he's got another run in him.

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    Re: Indiana 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 Basketball

    I think any non-homer IU fan knew this year was going to be a so-so year, specially after the losses of 4 1000 pt scorers. At he beginning of last year not many people woulda thought that Oladipo woulda developed enough to go to the NBA. I think this year would be totally different with Oladipo around...duh...LOL. I understand some of the frustration with Creans sub patterns. I do think he goes too far into the bench to give guys minutes. Also, if you are going to start Williams, give him starter minutes, if not don't start him. Also, I don't get the love affair with Hollowell. None of this tho is a reason to fire CTC. As far as doing better, not many programs in the country can say they couldn't do better as far as a coach. Crean is an excellent recruiter and player developer who I think has gotten better as far as X' & O's since he has been at IU.

    Fisher longer term is a tough loss. From what I'm hearing from people on campus is that he was homesick. I can respect that and that he said he wouldn't be going to another Big 10 school out of respect for IU. I would guess Marquett(?) would be towrd the top of his list.

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    Re: Indiana 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    I think most IU fans are on the same page with regards to Crean (outside the lunatic fringe who demand he be fired post haste). He did help restore the program to prominence, but the foreseeable future doesn't look particularly promising. He stocked the cupboards with enough talent to win the national championship, only to bow out much too early. He's shown a disconcerting inability to recruit and develop bigs (Zeller didn't make any great strides, Vonleh looks good, HMP has come along slowly and as of now there's no size whatsoever coming in next year).

    To me, it makes most sense to give him another couple years to see if he can recapture that magic he had from 2011-2013. The hiring and performance of a new coach is a crapshoot. As Hoosier Red and Revering pointed out, there's no certainty in being able to attract a big name or up-and-comer, and were you to be fortunate to grab one, there's no guarantees they won't fall on their face. With Crean you know he can get you into the title picture. It's just going to take a year or two to see if he's got another run in him.
    Shouldn't the expectation at a tradition rich school like IU bball be to reload rather than accept load up/rebuild? He is starting to look like the bball equivalent of John Cooper.
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    Re: Indiana 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Shouldn't the expectation at a tradition rich school like IU bball be to reload rather than accept load up/rebuild? He is starting to look like the bball equivalent of John Cooper.
    Ideally, yeah, I'd love to be a perennial top five team. But as dubc pointed out above, you don't replace four 1,000 scorers. It was a bit of a perfect storm too. Hulls and Watford were seniors, but Oladipo was junior and Zeller a sophomore. Nobody foresaw Oladipo becoming a top two pick. There was talk that Zeller considered sticking around to graduate in three years.

    Subtract all that talent and you better have your underclassmen step up. And here's the disconcerting part, they haven't. Hollowell and HMP are major disappointments thus far. Sheehey, ostensibly your senior leader, has shown he's not to be the focal point of an offense.

    To suggest Crean is Cooper means a sustained track record of failing with superior talent. Thus far, Crean has underachieved once. And, to me, that's the nature of the NCAA tournament. You position yourself with a high seed and then let the chips fall where they may. Do it enough times and you'll eventually find success.

    I find all the kvetching about Crean a bit confusing. He was great at Marquette, bringing them to a Final Four, and has steadily rebuilt the IU program. I'd argue that all those expecting a yearly run at the national title to be delusional. Name one program that lives up these "tradition rich standards." Even Coach K. and Bill Self have had the occasional low 20-win season or early departure from the tourney.
    Last edited by BillDoran; 01-02-2014 at 01:46 PM.

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    Re: Indiana 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    Ideally, yeah, I'd love to be a perennial top five team. But as dubc pointed out above, you don't replace four 1,000 scorers. It was a bit of a perfect storm too. Hulls and Watford were seniors, but Oladipo was junior and Zeller a sophomore. Nobody foresaw Oladipo becoming a top two pick. There was talk that Zeller considered sticking around to graduate in three years.

    Subtract all that talent and you better have your underclassmen step up. And here's the disconcerting part, they haven't. Hollowell and HMP are major disappointments thus far. Sheehey, ostensibly your senior leader, has shown he's not to be the focal point of an offense.

    To suggest Crean is Cooper means a sustained track record of failing with superior talent. Thus far, Crean has underachieved once. And, to me, that's the nature of the NCAA tournament. You position yourself with a high seed and then let the chips fall where they may. Do it enough times and you'll eventually find success.

    I find all the kvetching about Crean a bit confusing. He was great at Marquette, bringing them to a Final Four, and has steadily rebuilt the IU program. I'd argue that all those expecting a yearly run at the national title to be delusional. Name one program that lives up these "tradition rich standards." Even Coach K. and Bill Self have had the occasional low 20-win season or early departure from the tourney.
    I think one could make the arguement that Sheehey should go back to being the 6th man. I don't know who CTC would start, but I just don't think Sheehey brings the same energy as a starter. Maybe come the end of the year that changes, I don't know, I hoipe it does. I think the minutes Stanford Robinson got down the stretch during the Illinois game bodes will for IU. He played very solid D on Rice, limiting him to 1-6 shooting. His shooting would need to get better, but he has been playing well lately. I don't know if you can say Perea is a disappointment, like Dakich said during the game the other day, Perea is not a top 50 recruit, athletically yes, but as a basketball player no. He has shown improvement since last year and has given Indiana some very good minutes this year and has been solid from the free throw line.

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    Re: Indiana 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    Ideally, yeah, I'd love to be a perennial top five team. But as dubc pointed out above, you don't replace four 1,000 scorers. It was a bit of a perfect storm too. Hulls and Watford were seniors, but Oladipo was junior and Zeller a sophomore. Nobody foresaw Oladipo becoming a top two pick. There was talk that Zeller considered sticking around to graduate in three years.

    Subtract all that talent and you better have your underclassmen step up. And here's the disconcerting part, they haven't. Hollowell and HMP are major disappointments thus far. Sheehey, ostensibly your senior leader, has shown he's not to be the focal point of an offense.

    To suggest Crean is Cooper means a sustained track record of failing with superior talent. Thus far, Crean has underachieved once. And, to me, that's the nature of the NCAA tournament. You position yourself with a high seed and then let the chips fall where they may. Do it enough times and you'll eventually find success.

    I find all the kvetching about Crean a bit confusing. He was great at Marquette, bringing them to a Final Four, and has steadily rebuilt the IU program. I'd argue that all those expecting a yearly run at the national title to be delusional. Name one program that lives up these "tradition rich standards." Even Coach K. and Bill Self have had the occasional low 20-win season or early departure from the tourney.
    You're defining "reload" differently than me. Right now, IU is not even considered a top 25. I think that is unacceptable. BTW, Ohio State, Michigan State, doing it every year. IU has fallen to mediocrity. I think standards are too low for a sleeping giant.
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    Re: Indiana 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    You're defining "reload" differently than me. Right now, IU is not even considered a top 25. I think that is unacceptable. BTW, Ohio State, Michigan State, doing it every year. IU has fallen to mediocrity. I think standards are too low for a sleeping giant.
    You're right. We are defining "reload" differently. I don't much care about being ranked 15 or below; might as well be 45. I only care about teams capable of winning national, and to a lesser extent conference, championships. Anything outside that is window dressing. If it takes a down year after having arguably the most talented team in the country, so be it.

    Agreed on Ohio State and Michigan State as well. That's two of the best six or seven programs around these days. Certainly enviable. (I would argue that Izzo has slipped in a 17, 18 and 19-win seasons; Matta really has Ohio State humming).

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    Re: Indiana 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 Basketball

    Have Indiana fan expectations been permanently lowered? That's what it feels like...

    He couldn't get the overall #1 seed past the S16... past probation should have zero impact on the squad at this point and should not be thusly used as an excuse or explanation for subpar performance.

    You know who would scare me to death as the coach of IU? He'll never get hired simply because of his past and the Kelvin Sampson debacle, but Bruce Pearl would be an absolute monster at IU.
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    Re: Indiana 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by WMR View Post
    Have Indiana fan expectations been permanently lowered? That's what it feels like...

    He couldn't get the overall #1 seed past the S16... past probation should have zero impact on the squad at this point and should not be thusly used as an excuse or explanation for subpar performance.

    You know who would scare me to death as the coach of IU? He'll never get hired simply because of his past and the Kelvin Sampson debacle, but Bruce Pearl would be an absolute monster at IU.
    No, No, No...I hope this would never happen!!!

    Expectations have not been lowered and Indiana was not the overall #1 seed last year, that was Louisville. Getting beat by Syracuse who made the Final 4 is nothing to be ashamed about. Sure its disappointing to lose in the Sweet 16, but overall a good year. To me you have realist fans who know there are ups and downs in most programs, and then homers who expect Final 4's every year and a coach to be fired if it doesn't happen. IU's fanbase has many in that second group, get on any IU message board and you will learn quickly that there are some crazies out there who are very unrealistic!!!

    I agree with you that nobody should be using past sanctions as an excuse for anything now. The program is back to at least where it was when Coach Knight was fired, and if Coach Crean continues to have "down" years Im sure he won't last long. I doubt that happens tho, he is a great recruiter and developer of players.

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    Re: Indiana 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by WMR View Post
    Have Indiana fan expectations been permanently lowered? That's what it feels like...

    He couldn't get the overall #1 seed past the S16... past probation should have zero impact on the squad at this point and should not be thusly used as an excuse or explanation for subpar performance.

    You know who would scare me to death as the coach of IU? He'll never get hired simply because of his past and the Kelvin Sampson debacle, but Bruce Pearl would be an absolute monster at IU.
    I do think expectations have been lowered.
    You have a fan base that may have fond memories of Bob Knight, but post 1993 an NCAA tournament appearance was all that was expected.
    The unlikely run in 2002 notwithstanding, Indiana simply hasn't been a force in the NCAA tournament for 20 years.
    I'm a transplanted Hoosier fan, so that's pretty much my entire time as a fan.

    I don't think this program is at the level right now that a National Championship is expected. That's not to say it can't be acheived, but I think it's unreasonable to have a "championship or bust" or even a "Final Four or bust" mentality.

    With that said, making the tournament is still a minimum requirement for even a reasonably successful season. Failing to make the tournament isn't a fireable offense in and of itself, but it certainly can't and shouldn't be a consistent issue. And I think if the program desires to be considered "elite"(GAWD I HATE THAT WORD) it has to at least make the final four every 4-5 years.
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    Re: Indiana 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 Basketball

    He couldn't get the overall #1 seed past the S16
    It's happened to Dean Smith and Roy Williams many times with teams more talented than last year's IU squad. Nobody ever suggests that Smith and Williams couldn't/can't coach. And, as the post above mine states, IU wasn't the #1 overall seed last year.

    You know who would scare me to death as the coach of IU? He'll never get hired simply because of his past and the Kelvin Sampson debacle, but Bruce Pearl would be an absolute monster at IU.
    I have no doubt that, if given another chance, Pearl will do great things wherever he lands. That stated, if Final Fours are your measuring stick, Pearl has yet to accomplish that feat on the FCS level; Crean has.

    But as an answer to my previous question of who hypothetically should be targeted as a realistic option as IU's coach if the job were to open, I have to agree that Pearl is a great choice from a pure coaching standpoint. Then again, so was Kelvin Sampson, who just couldn't keep his hand out of the cookie jar.
    Last edited by Revering4Blue; 01-04-2014 at 12:56 AM.
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    Re: Indiana 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 Basketball

    Completely outclassed by Michigan State today.

    There's some talent on the roster. It needs seasoning.

    There is an incredible dearth of size (Sheehey guarded Payne the majority of the afternoon). Crean and Kenny Johnson best be searching high and low for a big in the late signing period.

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    Re: Indiana 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by dubc47834 View Post
    No, No, No...I hope this would never happen!!!

    Expectations have not been lowered and Indiana was not the overall #1 seed last year, that was Louisville. Getting beat by Syracuse who made the Final 4 is nothing to be ashamed about. Sure its disappointing to lose in the Sweet 16, but overall a good year. To me you have realist fans who know there are ups and downs in most programs, and then homers who expect Final 4's every year and a coach to be fired if it doesn't happen. IU's fanbase has many in that second group, get on any IU message board and you will learn quickly that there are some crazies out there who are very unrealistic!!!

    I agree with you that nobody should be using past sanctions as an excuse for anything now. The program is back to at least where it was when Coach Knight was fired, and if Coach Crean continues to have "down" years Im sure he won't last long. I doubt that happens tho, he is a great recruiter and developer of players.
    I agree you don't want Pearl. Besides being a real slimebag he really isn't that great of a coach. His teams were terrible defenders and he had a losing record to BCG at Kentucky. That in itself tells you a lot about his coaching.
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    Re: Indiana 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 Basketball

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    It's happened to Dean Smith and Roy Williams many times with teams more talented than last year's IU squad. Nobody ever suggests that Smith and Williams couldn't/can't coach. And, as the post above mine states, IU wasn't the #1 overall seed last year.



    I have no doubt that, if given another chance, Pearl will do great things wherever he lands. That stated, if Final Fours are your measuring stick, Pearl has yet to accomplish that feat on the FCS level; Crean has.

    But as an answer to my previous question of who hypothetically should be targeted as a realistic option as IU's coach if the job were to open, I have to agree that Pearl is a great choice from a pure coaching standpoint. Then again, so was Kelvin Sampson, who just couldn't keep his hand out of the cookie jar.
    What Pearl and Sampson have in common would make me hire neither. If they are good basketball coaches, let them go coach somewhere that recruiting is not as important as the coaching.
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