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Thread: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

  1. #61
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    I was completely okay with Janish at AAA before.

    As for Cairo or Frazier covering short for one game here and there...here's what we dealt with for years, I don't see Frazier doing worse than these guys.

    Felipe Lopez, Rich Aurilia, Juan Castro, Ray Olmedo, Royce Clayton, Enrique Cruz, Alex Gonzalez, Jeff Keppinger, Pedro Lopez, Jerry Hairston Jr., Danny Richar, Jolbert Cabrera, Adam Rosales, etc, etc, etc.

    There are some pretty bad SS listed there.
    Yeah, and it didn't work very well as a rule, which is why it's a better idea to have shortstops who can actually play shortstop.

    I think Frazier or Cairo can hold their own. Especially considering we're only talking about the occasional PT there.
    More PT than you'd think. Remember that we play in the double-switch league and it's most often the guys at the bottom of the order getting swapped out.

    But personally, I'd rather let Phillips cover it for that odd game and then plug in Frazier/Cairo at 2nd where they're more comfortable.
    Not me. It's the sort of thing that works in a video game better than in real life. Phillips is a cornerstone of the team. The 25th man complements the cornerstones, the cornerstones do not get jerked around for the sake of the 25th man. Especially to play a harder position that he last played on a regular basis seven years ago. Just a philosophical thing of mine, reasonable people can disagree.
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  3. #62
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    But personally, I'd rather let Phillips cover it for that odd game and then plug in Frazier/Cairo at 2nd where they're more comfortable.
    Todd Frazier is the most uncomfortable second baseman I have ever seen. He is 100 times more comfortable at shortstop than at second base, and I am honestly not exaggerating. He simply couldn't figure out that side of the bag when he was tried there a few years ago. His footwork didn't work, his reactions were slow, he struggled going toward the bag.... just incredibly uncomfortable.

  4. #63
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Todd Frazier is the most uncomfortable second baseman I have ever seen. He is 100 times more comfortable at shortstop than at second base, and I am honestly not exaggerating. He simply couldn't figure out that side of the bag when he was tried there a few years ago. His footwork didn't work, his reactions were slow, he struggled going toward the bag.... just incredibly uncomfortable.
    I watched Frazier play second, and I can vouch for that. I don't know if I'd say he is the worst I've seen at his level, but his footwork was nothing short of dreadful.

  5. #64
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Todd Frazier is the most uncomfortable second baseman I have ever seen. He is 100 times more comfortable at shortstop than at second base, and I am honestly not exaggerating. He simply couldn't figure out that side of the bag when he was tried there a few years ago. His footwork didn't work, his reactions were slow, he struggled going toward the bag.... just incredibly uncomfortable.
    Yeah, I was going to reword that. Cairo is more comfortable there. I think Frazier is the much better fit to cover short. I shouldn't have grouped them together in that statement.

    I saw Todd at second too. You're spot on. I like Todd for backing up LF, 3B, 1B and SS. Cairo for backing up 3B, 2B, 1B and in an emergency SS.
    Chapman to the rotation!!!! Do it already!!!!

  6. #65
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Is it ok to have a small issue with giving up talent for a mediocre upgrade over parts we already have in Janish and Valaika (if he is even an upgrade over Valaika that is)?
    I will give up easily replaceable parts like Horst for ML roster enhancements all day. It was only a few years ago when Walt added a fairly valuable piece like Valdez.

  7. #66
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    I will give up easily replaceable parts like Horst for ML roster enhancements all day. It was only a few years ago when Walt added a fairly valuable piece like Valdez.
    Wilson Valdez is now both fairly valuable AND not easily replaceable?

    And honest question, is he truly an upgrade over Chris Valaika?

  8. #67
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Does anyone realize that Horst was available to every team in baseball after the season? Nobody seemed to really care when we lost him the first time....

    This was a nothing for nothing move. A reallocation of depth.

  9. #68
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    Does anyone realize that Horst was available to every team in baseball after the season? Nobody seemed to really care when we lost him the first time....

    This was a nothing for nothing move. A reallocation of depth.
    Yup. Exactly. And that's why Phillies fans are annoyed. They're worried about the depth they have after Rollins. There must be something they like about Horst.

  10. #69
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    Does anyone realize that Horst was available to every team in baseball after the season? Nobody seemed to really care when we lost him the first time....

    This was a nothing for nothing move. A reallocation of depth.
    And I thought it was silly when every team in baseball passed on Horst then too. I would think Horst has more value to a MLB bullpen than Wilson Valdez and his sub .300 OBP and inability to play shortstop does.

  11. #70
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Wilson Valdez and his sub .300 OBP and inability to play shortstop does.
    Valdez is a solid SS with a plus arm.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  12. #71
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Paul Janish 2010 .260 .338 .385 .723 in about 200 AB's At age 27

    Wilson Valdez 2007 .201 .245 .266 .511 in about 140 AB's at age 27

    Yes, that is a .245 OBP.

    really? we added the 33 year old version of a LESSER player than we had in hand?
    And then they turned 28.

    You literally just randomly picked out Valdez's worst year and Janish's best year.
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  13. #72
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Valdez is a solid SS with a plus arm.
    He is adequate I guess. Rather have Janish if we needed an every day guy though, without a second thought.

  14. #73
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Wilson Valdez is now both fairly valuable AND not easily replaceable?

    And honest question, is he truly an upgrade over Chris Valaika?
    No, he likely isn't An upgrade over Valaika. And he isn't valuable
    Yet. But we could resurrect The multiple Cairo threads and see if they bear any resemblance.

  15. #74
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    He is adequate I guess. Rather have Janish if we needed an every day guy though, without a second thought.
    Let's talk intangibles. I don't know Valdez at all, except mostly for his pitching performance in that long game.

    But on the margins, isn't there some benefit to having a bench player who has been through pennant races and won playoff series?

    I'm not suggesting that I'd replace Joey Votto with a guy known primarily for intangibles.

    But I'd have to think that Valdez adds more to a ballclub than a Valaika or a Janish because of his experience on winning ballclubs.

    I do believe that's how the Reds are thinking about this. It's not very sabermetric, and certainly you'd prefer a much more accomplished, talented player over a Valdez, Valaika, or Janish type.

    But at the level of a backup shortstop, I think the experience, leadership, winning background factor means something.
    Last edited by Kc61; 01-25-2012 at 10:27 PM.

  16. #75
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Is it ok to have a small issue with giving up talent for a mediocre upgrade over parts we already have in Janish and Valaika (if he is even an upgrade over Valaika that is)?
    A mediocre upgrade remains an upgrade nonetheless.

    This reminds me of the complaining over signing Miguel Cairo a couple of years ago. How has that turned out?
    Last edited by Reds/Flyers Fan; 01-25-2012 at 10:46 PM.


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