Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

[Caveat Emperor]

Horst wasn't going to contribute significantly this season, Valdez gives them a backup shortstop in case Cozart can't answer the bell at the start of the year.

Simple as that, IMO.

[corkedbat]

As Pedro said it's a depth issue. And to make anything more out of it than that is a waste of time and effort. Time to move on to the next issue at hand, overall organizational depth especially in the OF and pitching.

If you're knee deep in muck, you don't pour on more muck, even if it does give you more depth. Unless of course, you just really like muck.

Don't really like or understand the move. Adds nothing substantial that wasn't already there. Probably has Janish in Louisville all season blocking someone more worthy. Maybe we can trade PJ to the Phils at the break for a LH reliever. Not complaining. Whatever Walt wants, but it's just a "Meh" move to me.

[Caveat Emperor]

If you're knee deep in muck, you don't pour on more muck, even if it does give you more depth. Unless of course, you just really like muck.

Even still, you have to build a 25 man roster that includes a SS and a backup.

With Cozart still not 100%, they have to at least plan for a contingency that includes him starting the season on the DL.

[Mario-Rijo]

Right now the 40 man is at 40 and Ludwick isn't on it. I presume Negron is the odd man out? And BTW we have only 2 catchers on it. And with Ludwick only 5 OF's.

[_Sir_Charles_]

No, the bats are not "probably equal." Valdez is the better hitter. Not by a ton, but he's clearly better.

Janish is better defensively, I will give him that. But Valdez is no slouch defensively.

He's also going to give you around a .300 OBP, which is far better than anything Janish will produce. Not only is Janish a complete punch-and-Judy hitter, he hardly ever walks. So, his paltry batting average is roughly the same as his paltry OBP.

Again, no one is saying that Valdez is good. Only that he's better than Paul Janish. I'm sure Walt Jocketty agrees Valdez is better than Janish, or he wouldn't have made the move.

I would agree that Valdez is the better hitter right now, but the difference is VERY small. He's getting older and trending downwards. Janish can pretty much only improve from his bottoming out season of last year. Considering the small difference in the bats, I'd go with the better glove as the backup. I would've also kept Horst instead of dumping him for a slightly different version of Janish.

[pedro]

If Paul Janish gets another 200 Major League ab's in a season I'll be floored. I've never seen a guy so "deer in the headlights" as he looked last year. I don't know what "it" is, but I know I've seen enough of Janish to know he's not the place to look. Stash him at AAA and hope no one gets hurt.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Even still, you have to build a 25 man roster that includes a SS and a backup.

With Cozart still not 100%, they have to at least plan for a contingency that includes him starting the season on the DL.

2 things.

First, we don't know that Cozart isn't 100%. If he's not, then this move makes sense. I won't argue about it at all.

Second, why is it that we HAVE to have a dedicated SS backup? Why has that become automatic? We HAVE 3 guys with more team value who CAN cover the SS backup role if absolutely necessary. Phillips, Frazier and Cairo. Will they be GOOD at it? Doubtful. Will they be able to do it for a game without killing us? Highly probable. Will they be able to do it for part of a game if Cozart gets hurt? Highly probable. So where is the need? If our starter gets hurt and is going to go onto the disabled list, then where we need a capable full-time backup is at Louisville. Not on the roster "just in case". Janish filled that role already IMO.

Here's my biggest question...who would you guys rather have on the 25 man roster full-time? Frazier or Valdez? Which player would prove MORE VALUABLE over the course of the season (if you discount injury)?

[marcshoe]

They're sending Janish to Louisville to learn 2 more pitches to add him to bullpen depth.

No need; Valdez already has FOUR pitches!

[Caveat Emperor]

Second, why is it that we HAVE to have a dedicated SS backup? Why has that become automatic? We HAVE 3 guys with more team value who CAN cover the SS backup role if absolutely necessary. Phillips, Frazier and Cairo. Will they be GOOD at it? Doubtful. Will they be able to do it for a game without killing us? Highly probable. Will they be able to do it for part of a game if Cozart gets hurt? Highly probable. So where is the need? If our starter gets hurt and is going to go onto the disabled list, then where we need a capable full-time backup is at Louisville. Not on the roster "just in case". Janish filled that role already IMO.

I think it's highly probable, after this deal, that Janish is the guy at AAA. And I'm very OK with that.

And come on -- not carrying a backup SS is silly. You aren't going to weaken your infield defense by moving Phillips off his gold glove position, and why throw Cairo or Frazier out there unless you absolutely have to?

[pedro]

It's silly to expect that Cozart is going to play 162 games and you can bet the guys on the pitching staff aren't going be very happy if the their isn't a legitimate BU SS when Cozart needs a rest.

[edabbs44]

Seriously, no one in their right mind should have an issue with the FO adding depth to the MI.

[dougdirt]

Seriously, no one in their right mind should have an issue with the FO adding depth to the MI.

Is it ok to have a small issue with giving up talent for a mediocre upgrade over parts we already have in Janish and Valaika (if he is even an upgrade over Valaika that is)?

[IslandRed]

If you're knee deep in muck, you don't pour on more muck, even if it does give you more depth. Unless of course, you just really like muck.

If you don't like Valdez, that's fine, but if so you're pretty much dumping on the entire population of backup middle infielders. The only difference between him and a lot of starting shortstops is about 25 OBP points. That matters, don't get me wrong, but not all levels of "not good enough to start" are equally lousy.

Probably has Janish in Louisville all season blocking someone more worthy.

There isn't any such prospect, at least not yet, and if there was, I doubt Janish would be in the way. I think the Reds have concluded Janish is an emergency glove and that's about it.

It's silly to expect that Cozart is going to play 162 games and you can bet the guys on the pitching staff aren't going be very happy if the their isn't a legitimate BU SS when Cozart needs a rest.

Yep. The job description involves both offense and defense. He's a split-the-difference guy between the all-bat and all-glove options we had, and over the course of the season that works better off the bench every day. And he can play the other infield positions as well.

[lollipopcurve]

The job description involves both offense and defense. He's a split-the-difference guy between the all-bat and all-glove options we had, and over the course of the season that works better off the bench every day. And he can play the other infield positions as well.

Well put. Valdez is a clear upgrade IMO. And the team could use a little turnover on the bench too, after a lousy year.

[_Sir_Charles_]

I think it's highly probable, after this deal, that Janish is the guy at AAA. And I'm very OK with that.

And come on -- not carrying a backup SS is silly. You aren't going to weaken your infield defense by moving Phillips off his gold glove position, and why throw Cairo or Frazier out there unless you absolutely have to?

I was completely okay with Janish at AAA before.

As for Cairo or Frazier covering short for one game here and there...here's what we dealt with for years, I don't see Frazier doing worse than these guys.

Felipe Lopez, Rich Aurilia, Juan Castro, Ray Olmedo, Royce Clayton, Enrique Cruz, Alex Gonzalez, Jeff Keppinger, Pedro Lopez, Jerry Hairston Jr., Danny Richar, Jolbert Cabrera, Adam Rosales, etc, etc, etc.

There are some pretty bad SS listed there. I think Frazier or Cairo can hold their own. Especially considering we're only talking about the occasional PT there. But personally, I'd rather let Phillips cover it for that odd game and then plug in Frazier/Cairo at 2nd where they're more comfortable.

Let me put it this way, NOBODY in the starting infield needs a defensive replacement. Period. So when the bench guys AREN'T getting that odd 2 or 3 starts a month, what are they going to be doing on the club? Pinch hitting. I just don't see the value of Janish or Valdez as PINCH HITTERS. Because that would be their main role on the club. Frazier brings much more to the table in that role and he won't KILL us defensively.