Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

[REDREAD]

I don't want to hoard prospects. I want them so they can acquire major league talent. Valdez barely qualifies, but his age, bat etc. beg the question of, why spend talent on this guy?

Ok, I think I get your point now.
You'd rather spend maybe 2-3 million or so to get a backup SS (example would be Renturia last year) than trade Horst to get a backup SS like Valdez making 950k (ish). Is that right?

I can see that point of view. If Horst ends up being a valuable contributor, you will be right

[traderumor]

It's in my manual.

your 5th starter is not the 25th man. He's the fifth starter. Do you think Valdez had more value last year than Vance Worley? Of course you don't.

IMO, small market teams should not trade for Paul Janish types. Buy them on the cheap? yes. But scouting, signing, and developing Horst costs money they cannot waste, especially once you see that development realized as he did pitch major league innings.

You don't agree. clearly. But I haven't been condescending in my arguments.

Really? This discussion started with a condescending, sarcastic remark you made about "this is one of my favorite arguments" toward another poster.

Anyhow, surely you know enough about the game to know that identifying a particular player or bench position as "the 25th man" is chasing the wind since it can vary depending on the DL, the schedule, etc. For example, some teams carry an extra reliever or bench player because of off days and send down their "5th starter." The "25th man" is as fluid as the roster. Further, your reasoning that "Worley had a great season as the Phillies 5th starter and Valdez is a light hitting utility infielder, therefore 5th starters cannot be the 25th man" is just another example of the poor logic used throughout this discussion. The conclusions you've made could be valid, but it sure isn't due to the arguments presented.

[Plus Plus]

I still remember one of the most dominating pitching performances that I ever witnessed in person. The Reds were playing the Giants in 2007 and Barry Bonds came up in the 8th inning against Jon Coutlangus. Coutlangus struck Bonds out and made him look like an absolute fool in the process. At that moment, I decided that Coutlangus would be a vital LOOGY for the Reds going forward (I was not versed in baseball statistics and measures at that time to the extent that I am now). Coutlangus ended that game going 1.1ip with 3 strikeouts, and made 62 appearances that year.

Now, it's 2012 and Jon Coutlangus is somewhere managing a car dealership, coaching high school baseball, or is lost somewhere in the ether.

The moral is not that Horst is Coutlangus: Horst is Horst and Coutlangus is Coutlangus. The moral is that relief pitchers who aren't that good don't need to be even thought twice about. I can guarantee that Coutlangus v.3.0 will come up through the minors this year and we will have another AAAA replaceable arm that the Reds can have on their AAA or MLB rosters, and then remove and not have to lose a wink of sleep about it.

[TRF]

Really? This discussion started with a condescending, sarcastic remark you made about "this is one of my favorite arguments" toward another poster.

Anyhow, surely you know enough about the game to know that identifying a particular player or bench position as "the 25th man" is chasing the wind since it can vary depending on the DL, the schedule, etc. For example, some teams carry an extra reliever or bench player because of off days and send down their "5th starter." The "25th man" is as fluid as the roster. Further, your reasoning that "Worley had a great season as the Phillies 5th starter and Valdez is a light hitting utility infielder, therefore 5th starters cannot be the 25th man" is just another example of the poor logic used throughout this discussion. The conclusions you've made could be valid, but it sure isn't due to the arguments presented.

It wasn't condescending as that Dorn argument has been brought up to me numerous times, I stood by it then, I stand by it now, and it is a fun argument. Are AAAA players, like Dorn worth a flier over say the Corey Patterson types, that seem to without fail get invites to ST and major league deals. Someone this year will take a chance on Willy Taveras. Meanwhile, Dorn, in a platoon, a guy that dominates RH pitching won't get a single MLB at bat.

Patterson, Taveras, Valdez, Janish. guys with speed or defense. they get chance after chance. Juan Castro had a 16 year career and a .595 career OPS. Are we saying there were NO better SS's than Juan Castro? Why did Castro have a career when say Gookie Dawkins did not?

I'd say that regardless of what team he was on at the time, Valdez was considered the 25th man. Injuries to Utley and Rollins pushed him higher, and he was exposed for what he is: decent glove, no stick. He's an older, latin Paul Janish. I'm of the opinion you purchase those players, you do not trade for them. Especially when you have 6 MI on your 40 man roster.

[REDREAD]

It wasn't condescending as that Dorn argument has been brought up to me numerous times, I stood by it then, I stand by it now, and it is a fun argument. .

I think I was the one that mentioned Dorn. It wasn't a shot at you or anyone in particular.

It just seemed, for a few years, Dorn was a Redszone Martyr that never got a chance. It reminds me of Drew Nelson constantly calling for DT Cromer to get called up, that's all. There was also a career AAAA journeyman pitcher that had a good year in AAA and people kept calling into the radio show to demand he get called up.. I can't remember the guy's name now.. but he bombed when he got the chance.

I think we can be overoptimistic about our minor leaguers at times.
It wasn't intended as an insult to anyone.

Maybe Horst becomes a servicable "last arm out of the pen". That is worth something, but comparable to a backup SS IMO.

[TRF]

I was and am a big Dorn fan. I do think guys like Dorn, Cromer, Petagine(sp?) and others deserve a chance. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but small market teams cannot afford to waste talent they have to bring in players they don't need.

The Reds simply do not need Wilson Valdez, not with seven MI's on the 40 man roster. Valdez makes it eight. They certainly didn't need him at the cost of a pitcher they had sunk almost a million in salary plus development. Ondrusek's best feature was he is still cheap and productive. Why do you give away a young pitcher, one you are developing for a 34 year old MI with no bat, declining skillset that just enters a logjam of younger BETTER players?

[lollipopcurve]

Why do you give away a young pitcher, one you are developing for a 34 year old MI with no bat, declining skillset that just enters a logjam of younger BETTER players?

Because a SS is a greater need than a LH reliever. Because an experienced utility player is more likely to handle the role well than a guy who's relatively new to it.

Over the last two years, Valdez has started a lot of games for perhaps the best team in the league. He's played in the postseason. That kind of experience counts for something.

[TRF]

Because a SS is a greater need than a LH reliever. Because an experienced utility player is more likely to handle the role well than a guy who's relatively new to it.

Over the last two years, Valdez has started a lot of games for perhaps the best team in the league. He's played in the postseason. That kind of experience counts for something.

Paul Janish played for the 2010 NL Central champions.

Sometimes we over value postseason experience when it comes to PT players.

[TRF]

As an aside, look on baseball-reference's site at Ondrusek if you get a chance. scroll down to the similar players section. It's kinda interesting.

[Boss-Hog]

As an aside, look on baseball-reference's site at Ondrusek if you get a chance. scroll down to the similar players section. It's kinda interesting.

I'm not sure why you keep mentioning Ondrusek in this debate?

[TRF]

I'm not sure why you keep mentioning Ondrusek in this debate?

because I'm an idiot?

long week, and for some reason I juxtaposed the two in my head.

I now respectfully bow out, plan to sleep all weekend and promise not to post for a goo long while. clearly, my head isn't all there.

[mth123]

It's in my manual.

your 5th starter is not the 25th man. He's the fifth starter. Do you think Valdez had more value last year than Vance Worley? Of course you don't.

IMO, small market teams should not trade for Paul Janish types. Buy them on the cheap? yes. But scouting, signing, and developing Horst costs money they cannot waste, especially once you see that development realized as he did pitch major league innings.

You don't agree. clearly. But I haven't been condescending in my arguments.

Here is the thing, trading Jeremy Horst for a guy who fills an organizational hole who makes less than $1 Million is buying him on the cheap. This deal was the Reds assuming Valdez' salary to take him off of Philly's hands. Jeremy Horst was merely a token sent the other way to make it official. The Reds thought so little of Horst they DFA'd him long before even having to clear a spot on the 40 man roster. They chose him to DFA instead of 2 infielders who washed out in AAA, a reliever who can't even strike anybody out in the minors and a 28 y/o reliever who has reached his peak and gets the yips every time he sniffs the majors. In years past, none of these guys would have lasted on the 40 man roster, yet the Reds chose to keep them over Horst. After that, Horst was available to all teams and all teams passed. Then, even though they got him through the DFA process as Reds property, they showed no interest in giving him a chance or letting him pitch even emergency innings in 2012 by signing two journeyman lefties who surpassed him on the depth chart for the same job. This isn't like the Reds dealt Chapman for Valdez. They gave up a guy that they tried to kick to the curb but nobody else wanted.

[camisadelgolf]

I was and am a big Dorn fan. I do think guys like Dorn, Cromer, Petagine(sp?) and others deserve a chance. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but small market teams cannot afford to waste talent they have to bring in players they don't need.

The Reds simply do not need Wilson Valdez, not with seven MI's on the 40 man roster. Valdez makes it eight. They certainly didn't need him at the cost of a pitcher they had sunk almost a million in salary plus development. Ondrusek's best feature was he is still cheap and productive. Why do you give away a young pitcher, one you are developing for a 34 year old MI with no bat, declining skillset that just enters a logjam of younger BETTER players?

Not that I disagree with you necessarily, but you only listed examples of players that didn't work out. Who are some guys that dd?

And I'm with Boss-Hog here--how is Logan Ondrusek relevant?

Also, are you claiming Jeremy Horst has made nearly a million dollars with the Reds? His yearly salaries and signing bonus, including the minor leagues, haven't even totaled half a million.

[_Sir_Charles_]

No, TRF simply got Horst and Ondrusek reversed in his head. Logan's NOT relevant to this discussion.

[WebScorpion]

My only worry is that Janish will outperform Valdez and they'll send Janish down only because he has options to keep from losing Valdez. So far, Jocketty has shown little propensity to do that, but I hope he doesn't start now. If Janish outperforms Valdez they shouldn't hesitate to DFA Valdez and outright him to AAA if he goes unclaimed. I like having the insurance, but I just have a sneaking suspicion that Janish will have the better year (offensively, I'm certain he'll be better defensively) of the two. Hopefully, Cozart will rake all year, stay healthy, and make this whole discussion moot.