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Thread: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

  1. #181
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by Reds/Flyers Fan View Post
    The are not the exact same player. Valdez can play far more positions and better at the plate, particularly in clutch situations.

    Paul Janish has to hit better and learn to play more positions to be as valuable to a club as Wilson Valdez.
    Which positions does Valdez play that Janish can't? Because Janish can most definitely play 2B and 3B.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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  3. #182
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    This trade doesn't bother me one way or the other.

    What gets me is people keep saying Valdez is CLEARLY a better hitter than Janish is. Rick and others have posted the stats, the stats say that they are pretty much the same hitter.

  4. #183
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    This trade doesn't bother me one way or the other.

    What gets me is people keep saying Valdez is CLEARLY a better hitter than Janish is. Rick and others have posted the stats, the stats say that they are pretty much the same hitter.
    What is Valdez?

    He's a guy who doesn't expect to start, he's a guy who likely does little things better, like going the other way, getting a bunt down, switching positions mid inning.

    And he Is now with Ramon gone the defacto Latin Sage on the team

  5. #184
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    What is Valdez?

    He's a guy who doesn't expect to start, he's a guy who likely does little things better, like going the other way, getting a bunt down, switching positions mid inning.

    And he Is now with Ramon gone the defacto Latin Sage on the team

    They still look like pretty much the same hitter to me...

  6. #185
    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    13 pages dedicated to a Jeremy Horst for Wilson Valdez trade. Only on Redszone. Love it .

  7. #186
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    13 pages dedicated to a Jeremy Horst for Wilson Valdez trade. Only on Redszone. Love it .

    Yep 13 pages, and a fair number of those 13 pages are filled with folks complaining about this thread being so long.

  8. #187
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    Yep 13 pages, and a fair number of those 13 pages are filled with folks complaining about this thread being so long.
    No kidding. There are lots of threads that others post in that I can't imagine why anyone cares, but I don't make it my mission to mock people for talking about it.

    If a topic doesn't interest some one, they should merely move on and let the others discuss the topic that they wish to discuss.

    This team is almost set. Janish vs. Valdez vs. Frazier vs. Valaika vs. Harris is probably one of the bigger decisions that the team will be making in Spring Training. Seems fairly topical IMO.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  9. #188
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    They still look like pretty much the same hitter to me...
    Not when you look beyond the career line on B-R. After watching Janish completely flop last season the Reds brass is probably having issues with him being the safety net for someone with hardly any track record.

  10. #189
    Member mattfeet's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    So Valdez makes how many shortstops that BPhil has played with now?

  11. #190
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    Not when you look beyond the career line on B-R. After watching Janish completely flop last season the Reds brass is probably having issues with him being the safety net for someone with hardly any track record.
    They can also look to the year before and be even more confused. Because I'll take that year from my backup SS every time.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  12. #191
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    They can also look to the year before and be even more confused. Because I'll take that year from my backup SS every time.
    I sure wouldn't, unless of course it was 1984, historically bad season at the plate for Janish, the fact he got that many PA's says more about the Reds other choices than it does about his skill set.


    Code:
    SEASON
    1980-2011
    SS
    AT BATS BETWEEN 250 AND 350
    
    OBA                           YEAR     OBA      AB     
    1    Andujar Cedeno           1996     .247      335   
    T2   Onix Concepcion          1985     .255      314   
    T2   Kiko Garcia              1980     .255      311   
    4    Ronny Cedeno             2009     .256      341   
    5    Spike Owen               1983     .257      306   
    6    Paul Janish              2011     .259      336   
    7    Alfredo Griffin          1988     .259      316   
    8    Jose Oquendo             1983     .260      328   
    9    Tripp Cromer             1995     .261      345   
    10   Benji Gil                1997     .263      317   
    
    RUNS CREATED/GAME             YEAR    RC/G      AB     
    1    Jose Oquendo             1983     1.73      328   
    2    Kiko Garcia              1980     1.81      311   
    3    Onix Concepcion          1985     1.87      314   
    4    Andujar Cedeno           1996     2.17      335   
    5    Alfredo Griffin          1988     2.18      316   
    6    Paul Janish              2011     2.21      336   
    7    Spike Owen               1983     2.37      306   
    8    Pat Meares               1993     2.39      346   
    9    Walt Weiss               1992     2.44      316   
    10   Tripp Cromer             1995     2.45      345   
    
    SLG                           YEAR     SLG      AB     
    1    Kiko Garcia              1980     .235      311   
    2    Walt Weiss               1992     .241      316   
    3    Wayne Tolleson           1987     .241      349   
    4    Jose Oquendo             1983     .244      328   
    5    Onix Concepcion          1985     .245      314   
    6    Alfredo Griffin          1988     .253      316   
    7    Paul Janish              2011     .262      336   
    8    Rafael Belliard          1986     .262      309   
    9    Casey Candaele           1992     .266      320   
    10   Spike Owen               1983     .271      306

  13. #192
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    I sure wouldn't, unless of course it was 1984, historically bad season at the plate for Janish, the fact he got that many PA's says more about the Reds other choices than it does about his skill set.


    Code:
    SEASON
    1980-2011
    SS
    AT BATS BETWEEN 250 AND 350
    
    OBA                           YEAR     OBA      AB     
    1    Andujar Cedeno           1996     .247      335   
    T2   Onix Concepcion          1985     .255      314   
    T2   Kiko Garcia              1980     .255      311   
    4    Ronny Cedeno             2009     .256      341   
    5    Spike Owen               1983     .257      306   
    6    Paul Janish              2011     .259      336   
    7    Alfredo Griffin          1988     .259      316   
    8    Jose Oquendo             1983     .260      328   
    9    Tripp Cromer             1995     .261      345   
    10   Benji Gil                1997     .263      317   
    
    RUNS CREATED/GAME             YEAR    RC/G      AB     
    1    Jose Oquendo             1983     1.73      328   
    2    Kiko Garcia              1980     1.81      311   
    3    Onix Concepcion          1985     1.87      314   
    4    Andujar Cedeno           1996     2.17      335   
    5    Alfredo Griffin          1988     2.18      316   
    6    Paul Janish              2011     2.21      336   
    7    Spike Owen               1983     2.37      306   
    8    Pat Meares               1993     2.39      346   
    9    Walt Weiss               1992     2.44      316   
    10   Tripp Cromer             1995     2.45      345   
    
    SLG                           YEAR     SLG      AB     
    1    Kiko Garcia              1980     .235      311   
    2    Walt Weiss               1992     .241      316   
    3    Wayne Tolleson           1987     .241      349   
    4    Jose Oquendo             1983     .244      328   
    5    Onix Concepcion          1985     .245      314   
    6    Alfredo Griffin          1988     .253      316   
    7    Paul Janish              2011     .262      336   
    8    Rafael Belliard          1986     .262      309   
    9    Casey Candaele           1992     .266      320   
    10   Spike Owen               1983     .271      306
    I was referring to 2010, the year he had the .730ish OPS
    Suck it up cupcake.

  14. #193
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    I was referring to 2010, the year he had the .730ish OPS
    If that's his ceiling than I'm looking for a bigger house

  15. #194
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    If that's his ceiling than I'm looking for a bigger house
    I don't have the software to pull numbers the way you do. BTW, what do you use?

    Here is a link to espn's 2010 stats. Yes, we all know what Janish did last year. I think some are forgetting what he did the year before. sorted by AB's, minimum 200 PA's

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting...Bats/minpa/200

    look that list over.

    he was 9th in OPS at SS. Yes, he had exactly 200 AB's, but as a backup SS, how many SHOULD he get. You may want a larger house, but it doesn't exist.

    In 2010, offensively, Paul Janish was one of the best backup SS's in baseball. I can't believe I just typed that, but it's true. He was also one of the best defensive SS's in baseball period.

    And in 2011, his offense was putrid. Go figure.
    Last edited by TRF; 01-31-2012 at 10:42 AM.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  16. #195
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Which positions does Valdez play that Janish can't? Because Janish can most definitely play 2B and 3B.
    Janish has played 33 games (19 starts) at 2B/3B in his career. Certainly too small a sample size for you to say one way or the other how good he can be in a utility role at those positions. Continue to mock me if you will. We traded nothing for a better utility player and you have an attachment to probably the worst MLB baseball player that had 350 PA's last season. One fluke season does not a player make.

    TRF: don't bore me with your "prove it" statement. I have been to baseball-reference.com and looked at the stats and I have actually objectively watched both players play baseball. Valdez is better; he's not great, he's not good, but he knows his role and he can certainly fill that role for this team better than Janish can.

    Bum


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