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Thread: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

  1. #226
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    They can also look to the year before and be even more confused. Because I'll take that year from my backup SS every time.
    Chris Dickerson provided similar false hope for a few on here as well.

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  3. #227
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    hmm.

    It really isn't might. BOTH players will LIKELY suck badly next year. BOTH players are.. well, bad.

    I do not understand why you trade from a weakness, LH relief pitching for an area in which you have depth, MI. 9 MI's on the 40 man roster. And now we have 10.

    Cozart
    Phillips
    Janish
    Valaika
    Frazier
    Cairo (well, kinda)
    Gregorious
    Negron
    Rodriguez
    Only two of those would likely play SS at the major league level in 2012.

    You seem to be ignoring that point.

  4. #228
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    1. Horst was already a goner IMO. Getting something for him was a nice move. He'd already been removed from the 40 man roster and his place in AAA was given to Mahay and Zavada. Joseph, Manno, Thurman and Webb will also be around in AAA and AA. I'm guessing Horst would have been released by the end of Spring or dealt for future considerations or some such nonsense.

    2. If Cozart stays healthy and only needs someone to play a couple times a month to let him rest a bit, any of 6 or 7 guys would be an adequate back-up. If Cozart goes down though, most of those guys are eliminated because they don't have the defensive chops to play SS for that much extended playing time. That would leave Janish as basically a full-time SS until the end of the season because we already know that others either aren't ready (Didi) or can't play enough defense to start often enough to make Janish a part-timer.

    3. We've already seen that Janish is a much better player on a part time basis than he is on a full time basis. IMO, this trade was to get some one who could split time with Janish should Cozart be unavaialble for an extended period. That move may just make Janish more like 2010 Janish than 2011 Janish. If Janish plays every day, 2011 Janish is almost a guarantee.

    Valdez is no star, but I think that's a fair return for a guy who was basically toast as far as his future with the Reds was concerned.
    Last edited by mth123; 01-31-2012 at 08:02 PM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

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  5. #229
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    1. Horst was already a goner IMO. Getting something for him was a nice move. He'd already been removed from the 40 man roster and his place in AAA was given to Mahay and Zavada. Joseph, Manno and Webb will also be around in AAA and AA. I'm guessing Horst would have been released by the end of Spring or dealt for future considerations or some such nonsense.

    2. If Cozart stays healthy and only needs someone to play a couple times a month to let him rest a bit, any of 6 or 7 guys would be an adequate back-up. If Cozart goes down though, most of those guys are eliminated because they don't have the defensive chops to play SS for that much extended playing time. That would leave Janish as basically a full-time SS until the end of the season because we already know that others either aren't ready (Didi) or can't play enough defense to start often enough to make Janish a part-timer.

    3. We've already seen that Janish is a much better player on a part time basis than he is on a full time basis. IMO, this trade was to get some one who could split time with Janish should Cozart be unavaialble for an extended period. That move may just make Janish more like 2010 Janish than 2011 Janish. If Janish plays every day, 2011 Janish is almost a guarantee.

    Valdez is no star, but I think that's a fair return for a guy who was basically toast as far as his future with the Reds was concerned.
    Seconded.

    Reasonable people can disagree on player value, so if TRF thought Horst was worthy of more consideration, that's cool. And I can go along with his concept of buying fringe guys instead of trading for them. But that presumes the team has the cash, and the way Jocketty's been structuring contracts, it's clear he is having to be very creative to do everything he wants to do and stay within budget. My guess is that Jocketty was basically out of money and even the free-agent versions of Wilson Valdez would have put him over budget. So he had to use a different resource to pry loose a viable shortstop he could afford. It goes like that sometimes.
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  6. #230
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    The Reds weren't going to be releasing Jeremy Horst. They clearly thought enough of him to call him up last year. He has had outstanding numbers for years.

  7. #231
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The Reds weren't going to be releasing Jeremy Horst. They clearly thought enough of him to call him up last year. He has had outstanding numbers for years.
    Then why remove him from the 40 man when guys like Jordan Smith, Chris Valaika and Kris Negron could have been chosen? Why sign Mahay and Zavada? I thought more of Horst as well, but its pretty clear the Reds didn't like what hey saw, because those guys they kept don't really deserve a 40 man spot, yet they chose Horst to DFA.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  8. #232
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The Reds weren't going to be releasing Jeremy Horst. They clearly thought enough of him to call him up last year. He has had outstanding numbers for years.
    He was placed on waivers once, so they thought so little of him that they risked losing him.

  9. #233
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    The Reds weren't going to be releasing Jeremy Horst.
    Right -- they would have been re-releasing him. They'd already "released" him to the first team willing to cough up $50,000. Somehow no one bit.
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  10. #234
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The Reds weren't going to be releasing Jeremy Horst. They clearly thought enough of him to call him up last year. He has had outstanding numbers for years.
    I imagine a LOOGY that was getting hit hard by lefties at the MLB level made him an afterthought. If I remember right, his call up was due to injuries and other guys lack of performance. Threw him at the wall to see if he could stick, and he didn't.
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  11. #235
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    yeah, because rookies always come up, and have lights out debuts.

    I bet he makes PHI's opening day roster. And I bet he has more value to them than Valdez will to the Reds.
    Only two of those would likely play SS at the major league level in 2012.

    You seem to be ignoring that point.
    I count 5. On a limited, part time basis? 5. And isn't that what we are talking about. So if Valdez is never acquired, you know, since the Reds already have him in Janish, then if Janish or Cozart go down, I count 5 guys that COULD play SS. If Janish AND Cozart go down, does anyone really want to see Wilson Valdez for 400 AB's?

    And that is beside the point. how many LH relievers are on the 40 man right now, and where does the 40 man roster stand? Is it full?

    EDIT: It's full. and contains just 2 LH relievers.

    That is dealing from a weakness to fill an area with depth. That makes this a bad transaction on it's own. Even if you think Horst is a LOOGY at best, now the Reds don't have one to spare. Guess it is a good thing Bray has no injury history where he has missed significant time in his career.

    wait...
    Last edited by TRF; 02-01-2012 at 09:58 AM.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  12. #236
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Clay Zavada replaces Horst and can be added to the 40 man roster easy enough.
    When all is said and done more is said than done.

  13. #237
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Clay Zavada replaces Horst and can be added to the 40 man roster easy enough.
    And if he can't, Ron Mahay can. And if he can't, maybe Wilkens de la Rosa can.

    And if Chapman can't start, I think he might be able to help replace the great Horst too.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  14. #238
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    yeah, because rookies always come up, and have lights out debuts.

    I bet he makes PHI's opening day roster. And I bet he has more value to them than Valdez will to the Reds.

    I'll take that bet.
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  15. #239
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    No, Zavada and Mahay cannot be added easily enough. the 40 man is full, so someone would have to be dropped. Now if it were a catastrophic injury, sure. But Ludwick hasn't even been added to the 40 man. There isn't any wiggle room.

    I'm not saying Horst was great. I'm saying there are NO LH RELIEVERS on the 40 man roster past Marshall and Bray. And Bray seems to be hurt every other year. I'm saying Jocketty dealt from an area of weakness for an area with depth, especially when you consider he has no open spots on the 40 man roster. He's only got 4 OF's on the 40 man, I doubt he drops any of them.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  16. #240
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by Puffy View Post
    I'll take that bet.
    bring it.
    Suck it up cupcake.


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