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Thread: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

  1. #106
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    My all time favorite argument. The same could be said for Nelson Cruz at one time too. And nobody took him.

    I'll agree that Horst might not be needed. I don't think Valdez is either. I don't think his veteranness is necessary as he has a total of 1032 PA's in six years. that's a lot of sitting.

    Janish has 975 PA's, has more innings in the field, is younger and a better defender. The bat is probably a wash.

    I'm not against getting players. I'm against getting what you already have, paying more for what you already have.

    pedro, I saw Janish last year too. awful. I saw something else in 2010. Completely different hitter. I have no idea why, but I suspect Janish isn't mentally up to being "The Man" at SS. I think he might be a very good backup though.
    Your argument is one of my favorites, using an exception to try to disprove a norm. What about Johan Santana, Rule 5, so we should never identify a replacement player because they might turn out to be Nelson Cruz or Johan Santana.
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  3. #107
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    I saw something else in 2010. Completely different hitter. I have no idea why, but I suspect Janish isn't mentally up to being "The Man" at SS. I think he might be a very good backup though.
    Maybe what you saw was the league finding a major weakness in his swing or approach, exploiting it, and Janish not being able to make the necessary adjustment. The big leagues are a tough place to exist and that very thing has been the demise of many a player.
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  4. #108
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    It's all speculation at this point. But I'll take the opinion of his manager over the arm-chair GM's here. Dusty thought he was worn down and that's why his numbers nose-dived.
    Last edited by _Sir_Charles_; 01-26-2012 at 02:12 PM. Reason: typo
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  5. #109
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Your argument is one of my favorites, using an exception to try to disprove a norm.
    I was thinking the exact same thing, but didn't quite know how to express it.

    You did an adrmirable job of doing just that.

  6. #110
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Your argument is one of my favorites, using an exception to try to disprove a norm. What about Johan Santana, Rule 5, so we should never identify a replacement player because they might turn out to be Nelson Cruz or Johan Santana.
    What I think is sometimes 62nd round picks become Mike Piazza.

    Sometimes 1st round picks become Reggie Taylor.

    And sometimes when guys just keep producing, they turn into Nelson Cruz, or even Ryan Ludwick.

    And I am not saying Paul Janish is any of those guys. I'm saying he's younger than Valdez, a better defender, possibly a better bat and makes acquiring him with anything other than money a waste of resources. The reds should trade talent to get talent, not to acquire replacement players.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  7. #111
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    I'm saying he's younger than Valdez
    Doesn't make him better.

    a better defender
    Debatable. Valdez has more experience playing multiple positions, which makes him better suited to the utility infield role.

    possibly a better bat
    Probably not. Jocketty seems to like Valdez better as a hitter. I'll take that.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  8. #112
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Debatable. Valdez has more experience playing multiple positions, which makes him better suited to the utility infield role.



    Probably not. Jocketty seems to like Valdez better as a hitter. I'll take that.
    It might be debatable, but the number of innings Valdez has at other positions, 3B, 2B is relatively negligible. I did get some thing wrong though. Valdez actually has 2399 innings to Janish's 2155.

    Valdez is a 2B that can play SS.
    Janish is a SS that can play 2B.

    As for Jocketty liking him as a hitter, I hate to say this, but so what? He liked Gomes, Taveras, and Cairo too.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  9. #113
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    My all time favorite argument. The same could be said for Nelson Cruz at one time too. And nobody took him.

    I'll agree that Horst might not be needed. I don't think Valdez is either. I don't think his veteranness is necessary as he has a total of 1032 PA's in six years. that's a lot of sitting.
    .
    Which is more valuable, a 3rd SS for depth or Jermemy Horst?

    If Cozart or Janish gets hurt, we're going to be very thankful to have that depth. This is not unlike the signing of Naivarro.. It's depth.

    IMO, Valdez is better as Janish, but even if you think Janish is better, having a 3rd SS in this organization makes a lot of sense.

    I don't think anyone is expecting Valdez to be a leader like Rolen was.
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  10. #114
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    If Marshall or Bray gets hurt which is more valuable?

    Not a ton of LH bullpen options, and Chapman should not pitch in the pen until or unless the starter conversion is deemed a bust.

    Valaika, Negron, et al. can fill in a few days defensively. You can hide a bat for a short period of time.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  11. #115
    One and a half men Patrick Bateman's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    I don't know Ron Mahay can probably get lefties out at the major league level just as well as Horst.

    Again, it's not like Horst projects to be that good. I just don't get why it is asusmed that he would add any more value to the major league club than a replacement level SS would.

  12. #116
    Vampire Weekend @Bernie's camisadelgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    I don't know Ron Mahay can probably get lefties out at the major league level just as well as Horst.

    Again, it's not like Horst projects to be that good. I just don't get why it is asusmed that he would add any more value to the major league club than a replacement level SS would.
    There are plenty of availale available players that can pitch about as well as Horst. The only reason he is attractive to a team is that he is young with options left. If Horst isn't added to the 40-man roster and kept there by the end of the year, he can become a free agent. It was a fair deal for both sides, and like someone already said, it was merely a matter of switching where the depth in the organization is. Seeing as how the Reds already have Billy Bray, Aroldis Chapman, Jeff Francis, Clayton Tanner, Ron Mahay, Travis Webb, Donnie Joseph, Chris Manno, etc., I'm not too worried about losing Horst.

  13. #117
    Vavasor TRF's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Well, I disagree. clearly.

    IMO, fielding a ball is easier than getting major league hitters out. You can hide a bat for a few days, ease a hitter into things. Having Donnie Joseph come up to face CarGo or Ryan Howard in the 8th inning is another matter entirely. Horst has major league experience, he was cheap, and in the minors at least had the ability to get a strikeout. I think with a year under his belt he'll be better.

    And it isn't that i really care that he's gone, just that he was traded for a big bag of meh.
    Suck it up cupcake.

  14. #118
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Which is more valuable, a 3rd SS for depth or Jermemy Horst?

    If Cozart or Janish gets hurt, we're going to be very thankful to have that depth.
    Or if Cozart is still recovering from Tommy John surgery and isn't ready to play. With this deal, Bowden's report certainly seems possible to me. The important news with this, I think, isn't so much that the Reds traded for Valdez, but that Cozart may not be ready at the start of the season.

  15. #119
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    Quote Originally Posted by corkedbat View Post
    If you're knee deep in muck, you don't pour on more muck, even if it does give you more depth. Unless of course, you just really like muck.
    I hear ya. I wondered if anybody else remembered it was the Wilson Valdez that spilled all that oil in Alaska.

  16. #120
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Reds trade LHP Jeremy Horst to Phillies for infielder Wilson Valdez

    A lot of pages and angst over a trade of an easily replaced bullpen arm for an easily replaced infield backup meant to shift a bit of perceived oversupply in the pen to shore up a perceived undersupply in the MI. No great shakes meant by the trade, no implications or attempt to nab a great player by either organization. Pretty sure both teams saw what they were getting - replacement level guys they hope not to have to use often but in a long season, well, maybe they better have someone stashed against bad times. The Reds are close with Francis, they have Donnie Joseph and Mahay, and none of them are considered part of the regular pen so Horst was extra parts. At SS, behind Janish they have Valaika maybe who can play SS, some doubt he can do it proficiently, then Kris Negron with zero experience and not too great minor league numbers. So you send a spare reliever not in your regular pen for a spare MI to make things look a bit depper. And Redszone goes 8 pages and still going....I am really surprised the Latos deal didn't hit 12,000,000 pages.


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