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Thread: Joe Posnanski blog: 3000 Hits

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    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Joe Posnanski blog: 3000 Hits

    This is a fascinating blog post by Joe Posnanski on various statistical milestones (not just 3000 hits) and a look at Hall of Fame credentials.

    http://joeposnanski.si.com/2012/02/16/3000-hits/
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    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Posnanski blog: 3000 Hits

    I read the article yesterday. As usual it was an interesting piece by Posnanski.
    BTW, did you read the Bill James article on Dwight Evans that was linked in Posnanski's article? I love James, and I am sympathetic to the argument that Evans is underrated, but I didn't think that article was up to James's usual standards.
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    Redsmetz redsmetz's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Posnanski blog: 3000 Hits

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    I read the article yesterday. As usual it was an interesting piece by Posnanski.
    BTW, did you read the Bill James article on Dwight Evans that was linked in Posnanski's article? I love James, and I am sympathetic to the argument that Evans is underrated, but I didn't think that article was up to James's usual standards.
    I haven't read much of James, but I personally found it fascinating. Still I had to scan some of it and my eyes glazed a little over the breakdown of their stats. What I found most fascinating was taking six players all born in the same year and examining their careers as they all progressed.

    More so, his mention of Evans having most of his very good years in his 30's (something he tabbed as happening in only about 5% of players), strikes me as pertinent to the discussion about Drew Stubbs and whether he can finally kick it in (although he's still just 27) - it can happen, but it's rare.

    But that's digressing. For those who didn't follow the link, he compares Evans with Cesar Cedeno, Jeff Burroughs, Al Cowan, Dave Parker & Dave Winfield, all born in 1951. Here's the link directly, interesting way to have a snapshot of some particular players and their coincidental history:

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...ce-cooperstown
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    Re: Joe Posnanski blog: 3000 Hits

    I find it curious that James compares his win shares to a pitcher's win and loss record. Every follower of James that I've seen argues against a pitcher's win-loss record as worthless in evaluating him.
    When people say that I don’t know what I’m talking about when it comes to sports or writing, I think: Man, you should see me in the rest of my life.
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    Re: Joe Posnanski blog: 3000 Hits

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    I find it curious that James compares his win shares to a pitcher's win and loss record. Every follower of James that I've seen argues against a pitcher's win-loss record as worthless in evaluating him.
    I agree that wins are pretty meaningless in a season to season evaluation but I think they have a lot of merit over a full career. It's a counting stat that only matters when it is evaluated over an entire career's worth of performance - any season or two or three season's is rendered meaningless by outside factors but winning 250 or 300 games takes a pretty darn good pitcher regardless of outside factors.

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    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Posnanski blog: 3000 Hits

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    I find it curious that James compares his win shares to a pitcher's win and loss record. Every follower of James that I've seen argues against a pitcher's win-loss record as worthless in evaluating him.
    That's one of the reasons I didn't find James's column to be up to his usual standards. We already have Win Shares and WAR and numerous other advanced ways to evaluate a player. I just didn't think trying to in effect convert Evans's performance to that of a pitcher's won-loss record was helpful.
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    Re: Joe Posnanski blog: 3000 Hits

    On the subject of Dwight Evans, this is a good article of why he is more worthy of the HOF than Jim Rice is.

    http://www.bloodysox.com/2011/04/17/...-dwight-evans/
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    Re: Joe Posnanski blog: 3000 Hits

    James has changed as writer, his recent effort was a crime book called Popular Crime, which I found really interesting, however I suspect his voice has changed. It happens to all writers, but I havent found the change to be less than before, but more accepting to the grey in the world, James could 20 odd years ago, be a tad caustic. I'll have to read these tonight, I found myself pondering at bat totals earlier today, and JPoes article falls right in line with that.

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    Re: Joe Posnanski blog: 3000 Hits

    Both Poz amd James miss what I consider to be the only criteria for a Hall of Fame member.

    Was this player one of the best at his position for at least 10 years.

    None of the players talked about were really ever one of the best at their positions. Maybe for one or two years, but never anythig close to a decade.
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    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Posnanski blog: 3000 Hits

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Both Poz amd James miss what I consider to be the only criteria for a Hall of Fame member.

    Was this player one of the best at his position for at least 10 years.

    .


    This is a really good book by Bill James called "Whatever Happened to Hall of Fame?" He does a very good job of breaking down who belongs and who doesn't.

    http://www.amazon.com/Whatever-Happe...9533579&sr=8-1
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    Re: Joe Posnanski blog: 3000 Hits

    If you use the "ten years the best at his position" criteria you can knock out about two thirds of the players currently in the Hall...

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    Re: Joe Posnanski blog: 3000 Hits

    Quote Originally Posted by George Anderson View Post
    This is a really good book by Bill James called "Whatever Happened to Hall of Fame?" He does a very good job of breaking down who belongs and who doesn't.

    http://www.amazon.com/Whatever-Happe...9533579&sr=8-1
    It is a terrific book. I have the hardcover edition published in 1994 with the title of "The Politics of Glory."
    In chapter 26 of the book, entitled "Round-Up", James discussed the then best Hall of Fame candidates by position. His list:
    C-Joe Torre
    1B-Orlando Cepeda
    2B-Nellie Fox
    3B-Ron Santo
    SS-George Davis
    LF-Minnie Minoso
    CF-Richie Ashburn
    RF-Tony Oliva
    SP-Jim Kaat
    SP-Don Sutton
    SP-Phil Niekro
    SP-Bob Caruthers
    MGR-Leo Durocher
    James added that of that group there were six men whom he believed should be in the HOF: Torre, Fox, Santo, Ashburn, Kaat and Niekro, "plus I would add another third baseman, Ken Boyer." Curiously, he didn't say there that Sutton should be in the HOF but in other writings James did advocate Sutton's induction.
    Since James orginally published this book Cepeda, Fox, Santo, Ashburn, Sutton, Niekro and Durocher have all been inducted into the HOF.
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    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Posnanski blog: 3000 Hits

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    It is a terrific book. I have the hardcover edition published in 1994 with the title of "The Politics of Glory."
    In chapter 26 of the book, entitled "Round-Up", James discussed the then best Hall of Fame candidates by position. His list:
    C-Joe Torre
    1B-Orlando Cepeda
    2B-Nellie Fox
    3B-Ron Santo
    SS-George Davis
    LF-Minnie Minoso
    CF-Richie Ashburn
    RF-Tony Oliva
    SP-Jim Kaat
    SP-Don Sutton
    SP-Phil Niekro
    SP-Bob Caruthers
    MGR-Leo Durocher
    James added that of that group there were six men whom he believed should be in the HOF: Torre, Fox, Santo, Ashburn, Kaat and Niekro, "plus I would add another third baseman, Ken Boyer." Curiously, he didn't say there that Sutton should be in the HOF but in other writings James did advocate Sutton's induction.
    Since James orginally published this book Cepeda, Fox, Santo, Ashburn, Sutton, Niekro and Durocher have all been inducted into the HOF.
    Before I got the book I was pretty confident I had a good grasp of who belonged in the HOF and who didn't. After reading the book I came to the conclusion I was pretty much clueless. I always felt Ron Santo was very much a borderline candidate and no way Ken Boyer was worthy but James convinced me Santo is very worthy as is Ken Boyer. He also made a strong case for Ted Simmons and Joe Torre (as a player). No way I would have thought before that these two are even close to being worthy of the HOF but again, James makes a strong case for them. James also did an excellent job of pointing out players who don't belong like Phil Rizzuto, Enos Slaughter and Ray Schalk. Again, before the book I thought these three were worthy of the HOF.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard

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    Re: Joe Posnanski blog: 3000 Hits

    Of the ones listed there, I'm most surprised by Oliva and Kaat not being in. I think they're highly overlooked.
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    Beer is good!! George Anderson's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Posnanski blog: 3000 Hits

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    Of the ones listed there, I'm most surprised by Oliva and Kaat not being in. I think they're highly overlooked.
    James convinced me both Kaat and Tommy John belong.

    If I recall he didn't think Oliva was worthy.
    "Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard


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