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Thread: Pittsburgh Pirates... will 2012 see them surprise?

  1. #16
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Pittsburgh Pirates... will 2012 see them surprise?

    I like Pittsburgh to play much like last year - tough at the start and fading. Burnett, I think will surprise many coming back to the NL and Bedard may, though I think he's less of a sure thing. They're young and hungry, still not quite there but not as far away as a lot people think.

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  3. #17
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Pittsburgh Pirates... will 2012 see them surprise?

    Bedard, the new Pere Schourek, 300 innings since 2008, fork him Dano

  4. #18
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Pittsburgh Pirates... will 2012 see them surprise?

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Bedard, the new Pere Schourek, 300 innings since 2008, fork him Dano
    A rare Pere Schourek reference, lol
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    Re: Pittsburgh Pirates... will 2012 see them surprise?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Don't underestimate the Burnett trade. He's put up decent peripherals the last few years in the AL East, and his biggest problem has been handling the pressure of NY. He could be a solid #2 15 game winner for the Pirates.
    AJ is 35 years old and has hit more than 13 wins once in his life. The Pirates themselves haven't had a 15 game winner in over a decade (I got tired of looking back more than 10 years, so who knows how long it has been). In the last 4 years, their top winner has averaged 10 wins, with a high of 12.


    It would take a perfect storm for him to win 15 games with the Pirates.

  6. #20
    Churlish Johnny Footstool's Avatar
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    Re: Pittsburgh Pirates... will 2012 see them surprise?

    They'll have a very difficult time scoring runs. Very difficult.
    "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

  7. #21
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Pittsburgh Pirates... will 2012 see them surprise?

    The 2 prospects heading back to the Yanks for Burnett look to be Exicardo Cayones and Diego Moreno

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/mi...d=cayone001exi

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/mi...d=moreno001die
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  8. #22
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Pittsburgh Pirates... will 2012 see them surprise?

    I see them as around an 80 win team, assuming good health. They just don't have the bats.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  9. #23
    Member powersackers's Avatar
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    Re: Pittsburgh Pirates... will 2012 see them surprise?

    They have some guys that might surprise like Alex Presley and Jose Tabata. Along with McCutchen that's a very good young OF.

    The Reds won't be running off with the division. A nice offseason it was, but not +15 to +20 win offseason that it would take to "run away with it".

    My Guesses (at best):
    Latos +3 wins
    Marshall +3 wins
    Ludwick/Heisey platoon: +2 wins
    Madson +2 wins
    Cozart/Rolen/Francisco and other roster depth improvements because of the signings/trades gives us: +4 wins

    That's +14 so 93 Wins. Probably just enough to win it over the runner-up Cardinals. But not a 100 win run away with it season.
    Attended 1976 World Series in my Mother's Womb. Attended 1990 World Series Game 2 as a 13 year old. Want to take my son to a a World Series Game in Cincinnati in my lifetime.

  10. #24
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Pittsburgh Pirates... will 2012 see them surprise?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I see them as around an 80 win team, assuming good health. They just don't have the bats.
    I just don't know about that. I really thought that last year, their pitching played well above what they should have...but their bats seriously underperformed.

    CF McCutchen: I think everybody here would agree that he's their best position player. He's gotten better I think each year. His BA went down quite a bit last year, but his production went up. I don't see him dropping off anytime soon.

    2B Walker: He's been pretty steady the past couple of years. He's got some decent power, hits for a solid average.

    RF Tabata: The biggest drawback with Jose is his lack of power. He hits for a solid average, has a nice so/bb ratio and he'll get his fair share of extra base hits. I don't think he hurts the club much, but for a RF'er they could certainly use more pop.

    LF Presley: Pretty much a Tabata clone at the plate. Decent but they need more OOmph here. McLouth could be a possibility here, but I think they want the 2008 version just like the Reds want the 2008 version of Ludwick.

    1B Jones: After his 2009 season, I was pretty high on Garrett. If he can bounce back, he's shown he can hit MLB pitching with authority. IIRC they also still have Derrek Lee. It wouldn't shock me at all to see him have a bounce back year too.

    SS Barmes: Clint is a VERY solid shortstop. He's not flashy defensively, but he's rock solid. And with the bat, he's got some pop. You might be surprised to see that he smacked 23 dingers back in '09.

    C Barajas: Mediocre is the word that comes to mind. But he does still have some pop in that bat. His problem is managing to put wood on the leather.

    3B McGehee: If he can bounce back to his 2009-10 form, they'll be fine here. But what could really help the Pirates is if Alvarez finally shows the promise he had in the minors. He's got the ability, he's just got to put it together in the show. 8th best prospect in the minors in '10.

    All things considered, sure, they lack power...but there aren't any really weak spots either. Just about every player (other than McCutchen) had a down year offensively last season. So even some moderate bounce-back could really help them. But the odds of everything going right are so remote, that's why I see them as middle of the pack.
    Last edited by _Sir_Charles_; 02-17-2012 at 07:08 PM.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  11. #25
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Pittsburgh Pirates... will 2012 see them surprise?

    They'll be decent, especially for Pirate standards. This will be their best team in 21 years, but they'll still struggle to get over .500. I bet they finish right around 80 wins. They'll contend for a while and then fade. Similar to last year, but they'll be a better team. I like Hurdle as their manager. And I definitely think the top of their rotation led by Bedard, Burnett and Morton could be more-than solid. Big risk with Bedard and Burnett, but high reward. And if you're the Pirates, this is clearly the best team you've had in ages, so of course you're going to be excited. But they have no one in the middle of the order to provide punch. Teams will pitch around McCutchen -- and he should be more of a 2-hole hitter anyway, not the lynchpin 3-hole hitter. They'll have to rely guys like McGehee and Alvarez to provide punch and that is likely not going to happen. Alvarez has bust written all over him. This season will be huge for him. Also not sure about D'Arnaud at short. I'd like our very own Zack Cozart over him in a heartbeat. I do like the home-grown Walker kid at second. He'll help them score runs. But overall, they're going to struggle offensively big-time. I also think there is no chance Hanrahan will be anywhere near as good as he was last year as their closer.
    Last edited by Blitz Dorsey; 02-18-2012 at 02:14 AM.

  12. #26
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Pittsburgh Pirates... will 2012 see them surprise?

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    I just don't know about that. I really thought that last year, their pitching played well above what they should have...but their bats seriously underperformed.

    CF McCutchen: I think everybody here would agree that he's their best position player. He's gotten better I think each year. His BA went down quite a bit last year, but his production went up. I don't see him dropping off anytime soon.

    2B Walker: He's been pretty steady the past couple of years. He's got some decent power, hits for a solid average.

    RF Tabata: The biggest drawback with Jose is his lack of power. He hits for a solid average, has a nice so/bb ratio and he'll get his fair share of extra base hits. I don't think he hurts the club much, but for a RF'er they could certainly use more pop.

    LF Presley: Pretty much a Tabata clone at the plate. Decent but they need more OOmph here. McLouth could be a possibility here, but I think they want the 2008 version just like the Reds want the 2008 version of Ludwick.

    1B Jones: After his 2009 season, I was pretty high on Garrett. If he can bounce back, he's shown he can hit MLB pitching with authority. IIRC they also still have Derrek Lee. It wouldn't shock me at all to see him have a bounce back year too.

    SS Barmes: Clint is a VERY solid shortstop. He's not flashy defensively, but he's rock solid. And with the bat, he's got some pop. You might be surprised to see that he smacked 23 dingers back in '09.

    C Barajas: Mediocre is the word that comes to mind. But he does still have some pop in that bat. His problem is managing to put wood on the leather.

    3B McGehee: If he can bounce back to his 2009-10 form, they'll be fine here. But what could really help the Pirates is if Alvarez finally shows the promise he had in the minors. He's got the ability, he's just got to put it together in the show. 8th best prospect in the minors in '10.

    All things considered, sure, they lack power...but there aren't any really weak spots either. Just about every player (other than McCutchen) had a down year offensively last season. So even some moderate bounce-back could really help them. But the odds of everything going right are so remote, that's why I see them as middle of the pack.
    1. Lee is a Free Agent who will probably retire.
    2. Pedro Alvarez will be the 3B and their best hope for a middle of the order power threat.
    3. McGehee and Garrett Jones will split 1B and could provide some sock in a platoon.
    4. McCutchen would be my choice as the ideal player for the Reds to acquire if possible and he's the best they have. He would fit well leading off for most teams, but I'd hit him 3rd in Pittsburgh.
    5. At some point Starling Marte may arrive and turn Presley into a 4th OF and that may help as well.

    Tabata RF
    Walker 2B
    McCutchen CF
    Alvarez 3B
    Jones/McGehee 1B
    Presley LF
    Barajas C
    Barmes SS

    Burnett
    Bedard
    Morton
    NcDonald
    Karstens
    Correia

    They are a little more promising than in past years, but I can't see them any higher than 4th and they won't be above .500. What they have done is help the rebuild with the moves they have made. Burnett and Bedard should both be decent trade pieces at the deadline and some of the kids might be ready then. If they could get a power option for 1B for say a bedard at the deadlne deal, it would help them a lot. Bedard back to the Red Sox for Lars Anderson might make some sense at some point in July. One of the young pitchers might be pushing for a look in the rotation by then.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  13. #27
    The rest is drama. marcshoe's Avatar
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    Re: Pittsburgh Pirates... will 2012 see them surprise?

    Not too many years ago I was listening to a Pirates pre-season show on late-night AM radio with the announcers going on and on about how this would be the year the Pirates turned it all around--they might even win it all! A local celebrity (wish I remembered his name) came on and was being interviewed about some concert he was doing, and the exchange went something like this:

    Host: So are you excited about the Pirates' chances this year?

    Guest: What???

    Host: Don't you think this team's going to be a real contender?

    Guest: (scoffs) If this team finishes over five hundred, I"ll walk from here to Harrisburg!

    This reminds me of that.

  14. #28
    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: Pittsburgh Pirates... will 2012 see them surprise?

    There was a time when Burnett and Bedard would have been very good additions to a club, any club. That time was about 5 years ago. I don't quite understand the Burnett trade for the Pirates. It kinda reminds me of the Matt Morris trade a handful of years ago. Your giving up something, and talking on salary for what? I think the Pirates are heading in the right direction (I said that) but I don't Burnett will be there when they actually turn into a team with promise.

  15. #29
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Pittsburgh Pirates... will 2012 see them surprise?

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    There was a time when Burnett and Bedard would have been very good additions to a club, any club. That time was about 5 years ago. I don't quite understand the Burnett trade for the Pirates. It kinda reminds me of the Matt Morris trade a handful of years ago. Your giving up something, and talking on salary for what? I think the Pirates are heading in the right direction (I said that) but I don't Burnett will be there when they actually turn into a team with promise.
    I think these guys were just acquired to be dealt for prospects down the road. If you want to supplement your own draft and develop process to assist with a rebuild, there really isn't another alternative with the new CBA. No longer can you take guys late and pay over slot to supplement your talent and no longer can huge amounts go to foreign players. I think this may end-up being a reasonable method for helping the future. They didn't really give up much talent and guys like Bedard and Burnett may fetch pieces down the road that will provide help. The Pirates have pitching coming and they'll make these guys expendable. Bedard to a contender this July may fetch a future every day player that the Pirates wouldn't have had otherwise. The same may happen with Burnett next year.
    Last edited by mth123; 02-19-2012 at 01:38 PM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  16. #30
    SERP deep cover ops WebScorpion's Avatar
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    Re: Pittsburgh Pirates... will 2012 see them surprise?

    They've managed to throw together a huge collection of formerly promising players coming off a down year or two. If every one of them bounces back they could be a formidable team. The odds are a few of them recover which will probably mean a middle of the road season for the buccos. I'd guess they come in just under .500 this year.

    "Okay you guys, pair up in threes!" --Yogi Berra


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