Yorman Article/Analysis

[redsof72]

Yorman and Duran would have to have complete disasters in 2012 to not be protected, simply because of the monetary investment the organization has already made in them. Most players have to prove they can play, but a few have to prove they can't. When you get $2 million plus, you will get chances to prove you can't play until you prove it beyond any doubt.

Guillon, I believe, has already been Rule V eligible for the last couple of years due to an administrative matter that voids the five year rule. I think Guillon will need a good spring to make the Dayton club. A good spring in this case would mean he shows up without the same control issues that popped up and gave him fits in 2011 (46 BB, 13 WP in 63 IP).

[redsof72]

Another interesting matter for prospect followers in spring training with be the status of the player we have known as Jonathan Correa--what will his age be listed as if he is there, and will he still be known as Jonathan Correa? Reds # 26 prospect entering the 2011 season.

Edit: Sorry to take the topic of the thread way off the subject with this but I thought it was worth a mention.

[Benihana]

Yorman and Duran would have to have complete disasters in 2012 to not be protected, simply because of the monetary investment the organization has already made in them. Most players have to prove they can play, but a few have to prove they can't. When you get $2 million plus, you will get chances to prove you can't play until you prove it beyond any doubt.

Guillon, I believe, has already been Rule V eligible for the last couple of years due to an administrative matter that voids the five year rule. I think Guillon will need a good spring to make the Dayton club. A good spring in this case would mean he shows up without the same control issues that popped up and gave him fits in 2011 (46 BB, 13 WP in 63 IP).

You really think there is a team out there that believes Yorman or Duran could stick on a major league roster at this point? Because that is what has to happen for them to get taken as a Rule V.

[redsof72]

See Lotzkar, Kyle. 2011, low-A: 14 GS, 4.32 ERA. Protected.

[Benihana]

See Lotzkar, Kyle. 2011, low-A: 14 GS, 4.32 ERA. Protected.

Yeah but there was the injury thing- because of his history, some team could argue that Lotzkar could be stashed on the DL (which teams often do as a loophole to the Rule V). Would be much harder to do with Yorman/Duran. Not saying you're wrong, just saying I wouldn't be too concerned about them getting snagged in the Rule V.

[redsof72]

Not saying I always agree with it, but you do see guys protected that you would think, on the surface, would have almost no chance of being taken (Donald Lutz) but they are protected if they are considered to have longterm potential rather than a guy that might actually be able to play that particular year. Lotzkar was protected and Jeremy Horst was exposed. Lotzkar would have about as much business in the big leagues in 2012 as Rawly Eastwick, and everyone knows that, and Horst is a borderline big leaguer, but it seems to work that way. One of those things that never seems to make total sense. I think the clubs think that their other big league-ready options for those 38th, 39th, and 40th spots are so replaceable that they just protect the guys with the most potential, just to take no chances, even if they appear to be far from actually being big league players.

[dougdirt]

Guillon, I believe, has already been Rule V eligible for the last couple of years due to an administrative matter that voids the five year rule. I think Guillon will need a good spring to make the Dayton club. A good spring in this case would mean he shows up without the same control issues that popped up and gave him fits in 2011 (46 BB, 13 WP in 63 IP).

Guillon actually found his control in the last month of the season. In his first 10 starts, he had as many walks as strikeouts (37 in 40 innings pitched). In his final 5 starts of the year, he had 9 walks and 23 strikeouts in 24 innings. The reasoning behind it, I don't know.... but I imagine the Reds coaches do. Hopefully, whatever it was, they can get it out of him again as he moves forward.

[Sea Ray]

Following this season, the Reds must decide whether to put Rodriguez on the 40-man roster or risk losing him in the rule 5 draft. The same is true for Juan Duran, Dan Corcino, J.C. Sulbaran, Ismael Guillon, and countless others.

Walk me through the particulars so I understand how this works because that doesn't add up to what others have written in this thread. It was written earlier that a guy who is signed before his 18th b-day gets 5 minor league years before having to be put on the big league 40 man roster. His first minor league season was 2009 making this yr his 4th. Why doesn't he get a 5th season next yr or am I missing something?

Thanks

[mth123]

Following this season, the Reds must decide whether to put Rodriguez on the 40-man roster or risk losing him in the rule 5 draft. The same is true for Juan Duran, Dan Corcino, J.C. Sulbaran, Ismael Guillon, and countless others.

Seems early for Yorman and Duran, but the Reds should have plenty of spots. Rolen, Phillips and Cairo are free agents. Marshall might be. Madson probably opts out. Jordan Smith, Chris Valaika and Kris Negron are very iffy. Probably at least one of Judy or Brackman will wash out. Paul Janish and Wilson Valdez are possible non-tenders. No shortage of spots IMO.

[camisadelgolf]

Walk me through the particulars so I understand how this works because that doesn't add up to what others have written in this thread. It was written earlier that a guy who is signed before his 18th b-day gets 5 minor league years before having to be put on the big league 40 man roster. His first minor league season was 2009 making this yr his 4th. Why doesn't he get a 5th season next yr or am I missing something?

Thanks

I'll try to get detailed here, so brace yourself.

If a player is 19 years old or older when he signs his first professional contract, he must be added to the 40-man roster or subject to the rule five draft following four years as a professional. For someone 16-to-18 years old (even 18 years and 364 days), they get an additional year.

To be clear, these do not need to be whole years of service time. Whether a player signs in April or August, it still counts as one year as a professional for the sake of determining rule five eligibility. Therefore, the earlier in the season you can sign someone to his first professional contract, the more beneficial it is since it gives a team more time to develop the player.

To clarify a couple things, players under 19 years of age when they signed in 2008 will be eligible for the next rule five draft, which is likely to be held in December. So will players who were 19 years of age or older when they signed in 2009.

edit:
One interesting thing to note is that there is a slightly different method for determining which players are eligible to become six-year free agents. If a player is drafted and signed in 2012, he will not be eligible for free agency until after the 2018 season provided he is not placed on the 40-man roster. I bring this up because a player needs six whole years of service time to become a minor league free agent, and players who are drafted and signed this year would actually be playing seven years as a professional before possibly becoming what is known as six-year free agents. However, when it comes to the rule five draft, the only things that matter are the age of the player and the date the contract was signed.

[Sea Ray]

I'll try to get detailed here, so brace yourself.

If a player is 19 years old or older when he signs his first professional contract, he must be added to the 40-man roster or subject to the rule five draft following four years as a professional. For someone 16-to-18 years old (even 18 years and 364 days), they get an additional year.

To be clear, these do not need to be whole years of service time. Whether a player signs in April or August, it still counts as one year as a professional for the sake of determining rule five eligibility. Therefore, the earlier in the season you can sign someone to his first professional contract, the more beneficial it is since it gives a team more time to develop the player.

To clarify a couple things, players under 19 years of age when they signed in 2008 will be eligible for the next rule five draft, which is likely to be held in December. So will players who were 19 years of age or older when they signed in 2009.

edit:
One interesting thing to note is that there is a slightly different method for determining which players are eligible to become six-year free agents. If a player is drafted and signed in 2012, he will not be eligible for free agency until after the 2018 season provided he is not placed on the 40-man roster. I bring this up because a player needs six whole years of service time to become a minor league free agent, and players who are drafted and signed this year would actually be playing seven years as a professional before possibly becoming what is known as six-year free agents. However, when it comes to the rule five draft, the only things that matter are the age of the player and the date the contract was signed.

Thanks for the xplanation.

Just so I get this:

Are you saying that even though Yorman didn't play any professional baseball during the 2008 season, it still counts as a year of minor league ball?

[camisadelgolf]

Thanks for the xplanation.

Just so I get this:

Are you saying that even though Yorman didn't play any professional baseball during the 2008 season, it still counts as a year of minor league ball?

Yes. At least that's my understanding. But if it helps you, I've never been wrong before. IIrc, YRod signed on on his 16th birthday. Had it been just a few months earlier, he would've waited another year for rule five eligibility.

[texasdave]

After 4 or 5 years as a professional, a player must be added to his club’s 40-man roster or exposed to the 29 other clubs in the Rule 5 draft. (Under the new CBA, a club has 5 years to evaluate a player who signs his first pro contract at 18 years old or younger, but only 4 years to decide on a player who signs at age 19.) For purposes of calculating years as a pro, the counting begins the day a player signs his first pro contract, not the season he begins to play.