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Thread: World Champ Cardinals vs The Cinncinnati Redlegs!

  1. #1
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    World Champ Cardinals vs The Cinncinnati Redlegs!

    Cardinals key losses:

    Albert Pujols
    Grades: Years 1-3 F- Years 4-10 A
    Tony LaRussa and Dave Duncan
    Grade: D+
    Edwin Jackson
    Grade: A-

    The loss of Pujols hurts a ton in the 'short' term. Long term, the Cardinals benefit and overall are better off not signing Pujols. A 37-42 year old Pujols making 25+ million a year (his contract is backloaded!) would have been a noose around the org's neck. LaRussa and Duncan are both losses as well. Although Duncan is an advisor to the team right now and says he'll come back if his wife gets better.

    Edwin Jackson would have been nice to keep around, but not at 12M for a 3/4 starter. The money ended up being better spent elsewhere.


    Reds key losses

    Fransisco Cordero
    Grade: F
    Boxberger/Alonso/Grandel/Volquez
    Grade: Years 1-3 A Years 4+ D
    Ramon Hernandez
    Grade: C-

    I don't understand why the Reds didn't keep Cordero at just 4.5M for one year. At that price, I was upset the Cardinals didn't try to land him. Madson is a nice pickup but is inconsistent, having a fallback option like Cordero at such a cheap price seems like it would have been a no-brainer. The Reds got great production out of Hernandez, not sure why Jocketty didn't try to keep that backstop-duo together for one more year since it worked so well. I'm guessing he has fears about Hernandez getting old.

    "Winner" = Reds in the short term, Cardinals in the long term.

    Cardinals Key Additions

    Carlos Beltran
    Grade: A+
    Rafeal Furcal
    Grade: B

    I was tempted to add Wainwright as an addition, but that'd be cheating! Beltran was an excellent pickup, he's coming off a great year where he got MVP votes. Beltran will be turning 35 this season, but for two years at $25M total, I like the pickup. I think he has two good years left in him. Linebrink is barely worth talking about.

    Furcal, at 33, still has some life left in him. I think we over-paid, but it solidifies a position for a couple of years that has been a black hole since Edgar Renteria defected to Boston. I think his offense will be better this year then last year, the dropoff from 2010 to 2011 was way too extreme and IMO was an aberration. Not that he is the player he was 5 years ago, but he's better offensively then he was last year.


    Reds Key Additions

    Ryan Madson
    Grade: A+
    Mat Latos
    Grade: See above
    Ryan Ludwick
    Grade: D

    Ryan Madson was a great pickup at the price. Like I said above, I'm confused that the Reds let Cordero go so cheaply and are putting all their eggs in Madson's basket, but you can't judge the signing by that. Ludwick fell off a cliff production wise when he left St Louis. I don't know what happened to him, but he's not a very good player any more.

    I like the Latos pick up a lot for the Reds for 2012. They needed a starter and the FA market was very poor this year, so Jocketty traded for one. However, I think he gave up way too much. I don't think this will work out quite like another of Jocketty's infamous trades (Dan Haren for Mark Mulder) but I think Reds fans will sad watching Grandel and Alonso from afar like Cardinals fans are watching Dan Haren. This is a "win now" trade, and it will be judged upon if the Reds do indeed win in the next two years while they still have Votto. The Cardinals have already been proven correct in the Rasmus trade, even if he ends up being an All Star guy in Toronto, the Reds trade will also be judged by the short term success or failure.

    Winner: I think it's a push in the short term. Long term, Cardinals "win" by a large margin.
    *11xWSChamps

    2011 World Series Champs... GO CARDS!

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    Re: World Champ Cardinals vs The Cinncinnati Redlegs!

    Wow that was long winded lol

    I'm going to reserve this spot for lineup/position match up between the two teams!
    *11xWSChamps

    2011 World Series Champs... GO CARDS!

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    Re: World Champ Cardinals vs The Cinncinnati Redlegs!

    One thing I think you need to take into effect (affect? I never know which to use) with the Latos for Alonso/Box/Grandal deal are the positions they play. We already have a catcher for the future, for now Alonso was blocked due to Votto, and Box is just a reliever. While they could all be very good players, they won't provide as much value to our team as they will to another team (with the exception of Boxberger, but relievers inherently don't provide a ton of value in the first place). Also, there is always the argument that until they prove themselves as all-stars, you can't assume they will be.

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    always ask questions bigredmechanism's Avatar
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    Re: World Champ Cardinals vs The Cinncinnati Redlegs!

    Sean Marshall is a key addition for the Reds as well, and an 'A' IMO.

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    Re: World Champ Cardinals vs The Cinncinnati Redlegs!

    Cordero's WHIP indicates that he was due for a pretty massive drop off in production this year. His stats show that he was very lucky last year. 4 mil plus is an overpay for Coco, and that is something the Reds cannot afford to do. Also, your argument that the Cardinals win in the future is a bit one sided in my opinion. In the next year the Reds might lose Brandon Phillips, Ryan Madson, Sean Marshall, and Scott Rolen due to their respective contracts expiring. Phillips, Madson, and Marshall all will project as type A free agents, all of them including Rolen command a big chunk of our payroll. So assuming all of those guys walk (or retire in Rolen's case) at the end of the season, the Reds will get a sweet haul of compensatory picks in the following draft. Also, with all of that money off the books the Reds can either lock down guys like Joey Votto, and Mat Latos, or go shopping in the free agent market. St. Louis clearly has a better farm system right now. Shelby Miller is a stud, and I envy the Cardinals high ceiling arms. But that said the Reds have a few of our own, along with some really interesting position players. So our farm isn't as bare a most make it out to be. I guess what I am getting at is that the Reds will be very good this year, but beyond this year I am not so certain. I am not saying that St. Louis will or won't be in a better position to be competitive than the Reds year from now. I just don't think it is cut and dry. Who knows? Ten years from now we could both be looking up at the Pirates or the Cubs (shudder). And by the way I know just as much about the future as any other guy, absolutely nothing. Just one man's opinion here.
    Let's get weird!

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    Re: World Champ Cardinals vs The Cinncinnati Redlegs!

    I am utterly shocked that a Cardinals fan would think the Cards win big time in the future, but that it's a push for right now. Sorry, but losing Pujols, Duncan and LaRussa is not going to be easy to replace. I don't care what grades you give Albert, or that he would have been a drain in future years, you are rating it a push for this year, which makes zero sense. Albert will be sorely missed. I think Duncan is a HUGE loss and hope his wife recovers fully.

    The Reds let Hernandez go because they have a rookie that they clearly want to give a shot to. If he matches the hype, Hernandez will not be missed.

    Your statement that Madson's inconsistent, but they should have take a chance on Cordero is nonsense. Cordero lost a bunch off his fastball last year. He had decent stats, but many times got clobbered, or was flat out wild. It wasn't just the Reds and Cards who passed on Cordero, but the majority of teams in baseball. I suspect they see the seam weaknesses.

    And as was already said, the Sean Marshall trade was one of the bigger acquisitions of the offseason. The Cards won the WS, and the Reds were not very good last year. The Reds have a lot of ground to make up this year, but I think they will. It should be fun to watch!
    Last edited by RedsfaninMT; 02-25-2012 at 09:12 PM.

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    The Smiling Side AintlifeGrande's Avatar
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    Re: World Champ Cardinals vs The Cinncinnati Redlegs!

    No way Beltran gets and A+ with his age and injury history.

    ROLL TIDE ROLL!!

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    Re: World Champ Cardinals vs The Cinncinnati Redlegs!

    once i seen ur coco grade i stopped reading

  10. #9
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    Re: World Champ Cardinals vs The Cinncinnati Redlegs!

    You spelled Cincinnati wrong. It's also pointless to grade these moves long term as that only holds water if both teams make no other moves for the next 10 years.

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    Re: World Champ Cardinals vs The Cinncinnati Redlegs!

    Short Term-

    I think the most notable loss for the Cards could be clubhouse stability. The losses of Pujols, Larussa, and Duncan could lead to disfunction. The baseball part of them leaving are obvious, but the intangibles that they brought get overlooked at times. The Cards have some volatile personalities and they could get out of control with the losses that the team suffered. I'm not sold on Wainwright being as solid as he was before, no pitcher has ever come back this soon and returned to form. Beltran is a solid player, but his injury history coupled with his age keep him from being a solid bet. The Cards did a massive overpay for his services, according to Beltran no other team came close to what the Cards offered. Furcal...really? The Cards do have young players that are very good and they will help offset some of the inevitable injury and/or decline problems the veterans will have.

    The Reds didn't really lose much this offseason, veteran wise. Hernandez and Cordero are aging players that are due for a major decline. The major additions of Latos, Marshall, Madson, and Ludwick make the team immediately better. Walt and company have also added some good depth players to help with injury and/or decline from veterans.

    Winner-Reds

    Long Term-

    The Cards have a strong farm system with some very good starting pitchers in it. Miller and Adams are the names that immediately jump out and they might be seen this year in St Louis. They, coupled with the young players at the MLB level seem to have them set up for many years to come.

    The Reds system was depleted but not emptied this offseason. Truthfully, only two of the players that were sent in trades were players that I could see as impact players at the MLB level, Alonso and Grandal, and they were both blocked at their positions by clearly better players.

    Winner-On paper it appears to be the Cards, but one thing to remember when it comes to guesses on the future is that they are only guesses.

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    Re: World Champ Cardinals vs The Cinncinnati Redlegs!

    The loss of LaRussa is the worst thing that can happen to the NL Central....he blew so many games last year with his awful managing its hard to believe....Albert drug the team down on the field AND in the clubhouse, and of course on the payroll. Berkman on 1st is a big improvement concidering that Beltran takes his spot. Good bat, far better Defense.

    Cards on paper are the best, but paper means nothing. They have too many injury prone players: Freese and Holliday are the worst, on and off the DL and big Craig is a clumsy eggshell as well. Berkman will also miss games due to sprains and such.

    Their rocks will be Molina and Schumacher...unfortunately he is the worst 2nd baseman in the majors.

    I look for a dam good race between the big 3 teams, with a possible threat coming from the Pirates.

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    Re: World Champ Cardinals vs The Cinncinnati Redlegs!

    It's hard for me to take seriously Cardinals' fans who aren't concerned about the loss of Pujols, TLR, and Duncan. Those guys had an effect, especially the last two. I'm sure as Reds' fans people here are aware that the Cardinals beat the Reds on several occasions because TLR simply outmanaged Dusty (see Dusty's confusion about www.weather.com). Losing those guys may cost the Cardinals' some games. It's possible that Matheny is as good and I hope that he is, but this is going to be a very competitive race this year.

    O and the Reds losing Coco is an F? Please, Marshall and Madson more than make up for that.

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    Re: World Champ Cardinals vs The Cinncinnati Redlegs!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal_Fan View Post
    It's hard for me to take seriously Cardinals' fans who aren't concerned about the loss of Pujols, TLR, and Duncan. Those guys had an effect, especially the last two. I'm sure as Reds' fans people here are aware that the Cardinals beat the Reds on several occasions because TLR simply outmanaged Dusty (see Dusty's confusion about www.weather.com). Losing those guys may cost the Cardinals' some games. It's possible that Matheny is as good and I hope that he is, but this is going to be a very competitive race this year.

    O and the Reds losing Coco is an F? Please, Marshall and Madson more than make up for that.
    Truth. TLR alone is worth several wins. He was arguably the best manager in the game. I don't think Dusty will ever be considered as an elite tactician. In fact, I think that if we don't bring Dusty back after the end of his contract (2012 is last year right?) that helps us in our "long term" grade against the Cards.

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    Member RedsfaninMT's Avatar
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    Re: World Champ Cardinals vs The Cinncinnati Redlegs!

    Either Dusty wins a playoff series this year, or he is done. The Reds have put too much into building a winner this year to accept anything other than winning a playoff series.

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    Re: World Champ Cardinals vs The Cinncinnati Redlegs!

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsfaninMT View Post
    Either Dusty wins a playoff series this year, or he is done. The Reds have put too much into building a winner this year to accept anything other than winning a playoff series.
    I could even see Dusty being replaced mid-season if the Reds struggle out of the gate. I don't think the FO will have much patience this year with anyone.


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